II Thessalonians 2:13-14

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
You do not believe one must repent and believe to be saved. You believe a man repents and believes because he has already been saved. And more to the point, you believe a man repents and believes because he has been born of God, when the Bible plainly teaches that a man is born of God because he repents and believes.

Not to jump in since Ken can answer for himself, but to jump in anyway

... YOu have confused salvation with being regenerated. Salvation is the whole of the redemptive process in the life of the individual. It is not one simple act. It includes election, effectual call, repentance and faith (conversion), regeneration, justification, etc. Most calvinists do believe that man must repent and believe to be saved. A very few, such as the primitive baptists, do not. We argue with them about that as well

... We do believe that a man is divinely enabled by God to repent and believe (Acts 11:15; 2 Thess 2:13; Phl 1:29; Rom 2:4, etc.) and we believe that all of God's elect will certainly do this.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
YOu have confused salvation with being regenerated. Salvation is the whole of the redemptive process in the life of the individual.

Larry,

1. The Scriptures I cited above put regeneration after faith. So even if you separate salvation and regeneration, you still are in a pickle.

2. There is a broad sense in which "salvation" refers to the whole process redemption. Notwithstanding, when we are talking about an accomplished experience of being "saved" from the damnation of hell it is identical with regeneration. As Paul said,

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved [past tense] us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

3. In reality, it is superfluous for Calvinists to speak of a man being "saved" from hell because to be "saved" implies being rescued from danger, and you guys don't believe the pre-selected were ever for one moment of their existence in any danger whatsoever of going to hell.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
1. The Scriptures I cited above put regeneration after faith. So even if you separate salvation and regeneration, you still are in a pickle.

Where?? What verses?? I haven't separated salvation and regeneration. Salvation is used of the whole process; regeneration is one part of that process.

2. There is a broad sense in which "salvation" refers to the whole process redemption. Notwithstanding, when we are talking about an accomplished experience of being "saved" from the damnation of hell it is identical with regeneration.

No, being saved is not identical with regeneration. Salvation is the whole of which regeneration is a part.

3. In reality, it is superfluous for Calvinists to speak of a man being "saved" from hell because to be "saved" implies being rescued from danger, and you guys don't believe the pre-selected were ever for one moment of their existence in any danger whatsoever of going to hell.

You are wrong. Had they not repented and believed, they would have most certainly gone to hell. And salvation is not just about hell. It is about being saved from sins.

These distinctions are technical theological distinctions which are often brushed over in general conversation. However, we cannot overlook them. Salvation is the same as regeneration only in the same sense that justification is the same or that election is the same or that belief is the same or that repentance is the same. All of these things are distinguished from each other in Scripture and so we try to relate them in the way that Scripture does.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
These verses merely state that Man can do nothing to save himself. ... but to accept that, we must believe.

OK. Which is it? Can man do nothing to save himself or must we believe (an act of free will)?

Interesting that you capitalized "Man"...

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

These distinctions are technical theological distinctions which are often brushed over in general conversation.

PastorLarry,

Put into language the common man can understand, that means that Calvinists have to make all these fine distinctions so they can escape the plain statements of the Bible.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
but to jump in anyway

Well done, Pastor Larry. If this was a football game the play-by-play announcer would be saying, "Touchdown Calvinists!"

We tend to think of the salvation process as being linear. But it is probably better thought of as being circular. When the circle is completed, salvation is then completed.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 14, 2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Put into language the common man

It's amazing how people will put forth the effort to learn the vocabulary used in their profession or their hobby, but when it comes to studying Biblical theology they don't expend the effort.

Studious homework is necessary to increase one's knowledge and understanding of the Bible.

"People who want milk should not seat themselves on a stool in the middle of a field in hope that a cow will back up to them." - Elbert Hubbard

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

OK. Which is it? Can man do nothing to save himself or must we believe (an act of free will)?

Without the power of Christ, man is hopelessly lost and cannot be saved. Man can do nothing with the Holy Spirit's drawing.

Therefore, both are correct. Man can do nothing to save himself. We must believe by an act of free will.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Put into language the common man

It's amazing how people will put forth the effort to learn the vocabulary used in their profession or their hobby, but when it comes to studying Biblical theology they don't expend the effort.</font>[/QUOTE]Ken,

There is a vast difference between Biblical vocabulary and theology and made up distinctions fabricated by Calvinists to rescue their theory from the plain statements of the Bible.

Of course Calvinists aren't going to admit a man is saved before he believes because then you would have to deny the time honored teaching of salvation by faith. But by some strange blindness you fellows simply ignore the passages which speak just as plainly about being born again by faith.

Oh, well, I didn't expect you to fall down and repent.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[ForumChaplain]

Mark Osgatharp
You are doing an excellant job of wittnessing to our brothers. I shall become a prayer warrior for your posts. They are not in vain, God will use them in his good time.

May God Bless.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
I didn't expect you to fall down and repent.

Mark,

What? Repent and become a Landmarkist? No thanks.

Now, the offer is always open for you to join us Spurgeonites.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 15, 2002, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Put into language the common man can understand, that means that Calvinists have to make all these fine distinctions so they can escape the plain statements of the Bible.

This is interesting coming from someone who has just labored to deny the plain statement of 2 Thess 2:13-14 ...

These distinctions are ones that Scripture makes. We have not developed them. We are simply trying to reconcile them.

[ October 15, 2002, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]