Ilinois Student Gets Detention for Hugging

I have publicly refuted you on this as well, including in my previous post where I admitted my experience could be wrong. I don't know why you don't get it. Going after me personally will not change the fact that you were wrong on this particular issue in the way you addressed it vis-a-vis my posts. That doesn't mean you are wrong on anything else. I don't read enough of your posts to know where you stand on anything. But I have read enough of mine to know that I am not always right. I have never claimed to be. Feel free to disagree with me. It really won't bother me. Just don't go personal. This board deserves better than that.

 

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LE

 

So do a lot of other conservatives say the same thing yet they live like practical atheists. I would say the majority of pastors who say that are really practical liars because they have not made disciples as Jesus spoke about it. The claim top stand up for the Bible like Peter did for Jesus. The Bible stands by itself. It does not anyone to stand for it. God wants messengers not creedalists like James speaks about. However I would believe that you are a man of integrity and are doing your best to do what you believe God wants. I just don't agree with you on everything on this issue.

The Holy Spirit gives commands that scripture never addresses. God gives wisdom in the midst of trials that scripture cannot possibly address. Proverbs never addresses every issue.

The Bible never talks about a campus. Does that mean campuses should not exist? The Bible never talks about air conditioners. Does that mean we should not have them? The Bible never talks about English. Does that mean we should not speak English?

The Bible does not talk about home schooling. From historical accounts we do know that the Rabbis taught the boys at about the age of ten. Home schooling did not exist for them. Does that mean you should start preaching against home schooling?

The Bible does talk about immorality. I think you and I would agree that generally hugging is useless among students and among the opposite sex. However to say it should never happen it to say it is always inappropriate. Certainly the devil can have an opportunity. Personally if I had my way there would not be a woman secretary in any church nor any pastors dealing with women. I am sure you do know that in the early church a pastor never talked with a woman in the congregation and it is still that way in any part of that area of the world. In those areas women do a lot of the work that the men in the US will not let the women in churches do. So when will you start preaching against women secretaries and the pastor not talking with women. We also know that men and women were separated in the congregation. I once taught a Sunday School class where the men and women were separated. They were separated because so many women has lost their husbands. So out of respect for them the men did not sit with their wives.

I can drink too much water and die. That is suicide. However water is essential to life and must be used wisely. Most anything can be misused and used properly. It is up to every adult to teach the wise use of things to the young people. I big gripe of mine is that so few parents teach their children to share their faith by showing their kids how it's done, but yet have so many have answers and can argue many points on how to live and do not give them the one essential thing that will give them the most joy.

Your experiences must be totally the opposite of mine because I cannot think of anytime that a couple came to me wanting help with communication because their marriage was in trouble and there was a lot of affection.

What you just wrote furthers my point that there is a lot of inappropriateness going on. That is al the more reason to not ignore something. Remember the days when church goers said that dancing was wrong and sinful. Yet Eccl. 3 clearly teaches that there is a time to dance. That clearly shows those people were ignorant of their Bible and played follow the leader. Shall we have the same puppy dogs today? We need men and women who have the guts to stand up against people who are merely opinionated and do not teach what scripture clearly says. We need adults with wisdom and clear knowledge not simply opinions. A number of people sitting in the pews today congratulate an ignorant preacher who preaches into their comort zone and not really what scripture teaches. I would be willing to say that if preachers started holding people accountable and train them we would see empty churches and other churches on fire.

A few years back one of the men in charge of planting churches in a major Baptist denomination/convention asked me why people would want to come to my church. I told him that it was not my church and I also told him that people would come because people were living for Jesus Christ and those visiting would see genuine Christians. He told people would come because of good entertainment. I was shocked!!

That is the problem with the church today. There is too much opinion and not enough of Christ and boldness in trusting him.

We do know that Jesus turned over the tax gatherers tables. So because Jesus did that does it mean should always do that? Appropriate is right. Inappropriate is always wrong. It is really quite simple.

Sometime do a study on the Holy Spirit. Then start preaching on the role of the Holy Spirit in about 1/3 of your sermons and see the responses you get. I can assure you that a lot of Baptists will assumed you have turned Pentecostal. Spurgeon preached about 1/3 of the time on the role of the Holy Spirit. He sure was not a Pentecostal.

 

If we only preached what the Bible directly taught we would have a lifetime of supply. If we made disciples like Jesus commanded and in the way he did then most likely you would get a ready supply of excuses. Sometime just send out the members in your church two by two and see how many members show up and how quick they are to discuss theology. I started doing that in a dying church I pastored and the troublemakers never showed. It was also amazing how many pastors made excuses when I told them what I was doing when they asked why the church was growing. The troublemakers were the same people who were quick to argue theology. When they tried to do that with me, I just told them to go win people to Christ and make disciples. I never saw any of them do that.

I pastored a church where the youth group was a hug fest before I came and I addressed the issue. My first address to them was what was appropriate. I did not ignore the issue but dealt with it. To ignore the issue does nothing to postpone the issue and refuse to deal with it. Over the years I have had parents thank me for dealing with issues in a real way. I tell students that sexual immorality is wrong from what scripture teaches but I also show them from a medical point of view. If they walk away ignoring what I said they are simply stupid and refuse to heed the admonition. Students must be taught what is appropriate not just ignore the issues. I see no place in the Bible where it ignores issues other than when Jesus wrote on the ground. As Christians wee are to give instruction. I cannot see how a refusal to deal with the tough issues and answer the tough questions is helping anyone. Sometimes the stuffy adults will squirm when I talk about those issues. My response has always been that scripture deals with those issues and so should I. Do I generally agree with you? Yes, but not in every case. The schools and society are worse of today in many ways and it is not because of hugging. In fact when I was a kid a lot of the teachers hugged their students if the students did well or needed someone to comfort them.

To never say hug another student, is like the old fundamentalists saying never dance because it is sin. The Bible says there is a time to dance and the old fundamentalists were proven liars by the younger people who read their Bible. I remember the time a parent began to tell me about some of the things he was told by his parents and how he needed answers when his children started reading the Bible and asking questions. The answer his parents provided were what they had been told which amounted to ignorance.

If we want to perpetuate ignorance then we can give out pat answer from a well of ignorance or we can use wisdom and teach our children what is wise and appropriate.

I am in the schools everyday and see what really happens. Unfortunately I see no difference in most church youth groups than in the public school. I do see a lot of fear among young kids to share their faith. Some of them who come from fundamentalist homes are not taught to share their faith and take a stance for Christ but rather they are afraid and treat others as though they will be contaminated. It is not hard to see why so many new Christians have the greatest impact on college campuses. The have not been taught to be afraid of being contaminated by what others imagine. They believe the Bible when they read about Daniel and ignore the nonsense of others who teach to be afraid. They believe the righteous are bold as a lion and not as one who does not trust Christ for daily living.

When I am in the world that is all the more reason I need to stay sharp and alert. If I am to reach people I must name the name of Christ and make it clear where I stand. If we do not, how can we help anyone other than be a pacifier?

My major point is that when we are under the control of the Holy Spirit he will guide us. God's grace and the law of liberty extends way beyond a legalistic list of dos and don'ts. When we help people there is always the risk of being trapped. If we never helped anyone we would always be safe. I did not get a masters degree because I shared my faith with many Mormons at the university. That is the risk I took. At that university I personally saw about 65 people come to Christ and be discipled. If I had played it safe I could have gotten my degree and been ineffective.

Can hugging lead to sexual immorality. Yes. But does it have to? No. Can talking with someone lead to sexual immorality? Yes. Does it have to? No.

Can being a pastor lead to sexual immorality? Yes. Does it have to? No.

Almost anything can be made to be good or bad depending on the situation.

I think that you get my point that we can play it safe or we can live a life glorifying Christ. God will give us pure wisdom from above and not the wisdom of men who desire to live a life of ease and comfort.

The only rule is to glorify God in all we do. To hug someone may be quite inappropriate and at other times it would be inappropriate not to. The Holy Spirit will guide us in that. To make a blanket statement that it is always inappropriate among students is to be a junior Holy Spirit.

Anyone studying missions clearly knows that those who radically changed missions were young people not pew sitters. One would have a time arguing that young people do not have the wisdom of old people are simply not true. I have seen many many young people go all out for Christ while old people are selfish pigs. Any pastors knows that the biggest trouble he has when a young person wants to be a missionary is dealing with the parents.

 

I am not sure how you would know enough to comment on the majority of pastors.

Really?

So when the Bible tells us that Scripture equips us for every good work, it really didn’t mean that? I think God uses Scripture in the midst of trials to give us wisdom. He does not do it apart from Scripture.

It wasn’t intended to.

All of which is completely off topic and irrelevant.

I didn’t say hugging should never happen. Again, I wish you would have addressed what I actually did say.

That’s not true. The Book of Acts gives plenty of examples to the contrary.

The Bible doesn’t address women secretaries, though it does give wisdom about how to deal with the situation. I do not talk to women at any length without my wife or another man present. It too is a matter of wisdom.

I am dealing with one right now. And have dealt with them in the past.

It sounds like you agree with me.

Um, are the “wrong and sinful dancing” and the Ecc 3 dancing the same kind of thing? I rather doubt it.

I totally agree which is why I have said what I have said here. We have had an awful lot of opinions offered but very little wisdom, and very little consideration of the biblical teaching on morality and how it should be applied. We had one person (you) try to argue that Jesus regularly hugged people, and then fail to show any instance where the Bible actually says he did. Your lone appeal was to children sitting on Jesus’ lap. We had another trying to argue that biblical affection included school girls hugging one another, yet failing to provide any biblical foundation for including hugging in biblical love.

These arguments (and others) are inadequate.

Again, you seem to be agreeing with me. Yet you started by arguing that because Jesus hugged people regularly we should. Not only did you fail to prove he actually did that, but now you actually argue that just because Jesus did something doesn’t mean we should.

I have studied and taught on the Holy Spirit. Given my practice of expository preaching through books, I preach on the Holy Spirit as often as the topic comes up.

Again, you have no biblical basis for this, and you make a huge jump in arguing that the dancing of Scripture is what fundamentalists (and all Christians until recent times) were against. You are just rambling here so I am not going to take much time to address it, but you are making some bad arguments here.

But God’s grace and liberty never lead us to disobedience or unwise behavior. There are do’s and don’t’s in Scripture and we best not ignore them, especially if we are going to make disciples.

I totally agree. But that is completely irrelevant to this topic.

No it’s not. And I didn’t make that argument specifically, though I see no need for it. The argument was about the fact that a school made a rule and therefore should enforce it, since hugging serves no legitimate purpose in an educational setting.


Fortunately, this thread is about to close.

 

Take a look around and also talk with a few. If you do not believe me then ask them. The proof is in the fruit.

If you still do not believe me then start asking and read http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

James 1:5.

My point exactly. Thas is the reason for a living relationship with the living God.

Did you not write, "Hugging in school is inappropriate and unnecessary. It does not need to be done. And when 25% of kids in church youth groups are involved in sexual immorality, we have a problem." ?

The problem is not hugging. It goes much deeper than that. They are unwilling to keep their pants on. It starts long before that though.

Read an early church history of the role of a deaconess and the relationshipo they had between the pastor, deacon and women in the congregation. In some of the countries I know about from missionaries in that area, it is still the same way.

I agree. A case of something the Bible does not directly address.

I agree with you and that is all the more reason kids are deserving of an explanation and are helped to make right decisions.

Why would scripture address something which was commonplace. Unless I am wrong I would assume that when Jesus had a child sit on his lap is just as affectionate if not more than a simple hug.

Can provide documentation about the intimate details of Jesus private life?

Perhaps you are much younger than me and are not aware of hearing it broadcast on the radio, TV and hearing others talk about it.

Did I say all Christians? I probably should have used something else other than fundamentalists. Some did read and teach the Bible. It is the idiots who were ignorant who like to beat an issue out of their ignorance that often said those things.

Absolutely.

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were stating it as fact rather than your opinion. I agree with your opinion most of the time but not in every case.