Illegals and the church

[Salty]

I agree that if someone is breaking the law, there should be a punishment. I'm simply saying that restrictions for immigration should be eased up, but, govt benefits should be virtually non-existent for non-citizens.

 

[billwald]

>Sorry, Bill. If you break a law you are a criminal and entering the country illegally is breaking the law (hence the "illegal" part).

You want the law enforced against people you don't like and want a free pass for yourself, right?

Anyway, the thread title . . . do you all also deny and despise the traditional concept of the church as a place of refuge?

 

[matt wade]

You want the law enforced against people you don't like and want a free pass for yourself, right?

Where is anyone asking for a pass billwald? Please show me where one poster on this thread has said they would like a pass on their illegal activity?

Anyway, the thread title . . . do you all also deny and despise the traditional concept of the church as a place of refuge?

Please show me where New Testament churches have been a place of refuge for criminals? Blow the dust off your Bible, read it, and come back when you haven't found it in there.

 

[billwald]

Christians argue from silence and by their bad driving. If Christians drove under the speed limit it would be the norm because of the physics of driving.

In Washington State the only lanes I can both legally and pragmatically drive the speed limit are the car pool lanes. I get my entertainment by setting the autopilot at the speed limit and watch all the good Christians speed by.

Cities of Refuge were designated by God.

 

[matt wade]

Christians argue from silence and by their bad driving. If Christians drove under the speed limit it would be the norm because of the physics of driving.

In Washington State the only lanes I can both legally and pragmatically drive the speed limit are the car pool lanes. I get my entertainment by setting the autopilot at the speed limit and watch all the good Christians speed by.

Once again, where has anyone here asked for a pass? I do my best to not speed. Yes, occasionally I will speed when I don't pay attention as closely as I should. On those occasions, I would have no problem with the police enforcing the law and giving me a ticket. It's the police's job to enforce the law and I'm not going to complain when they do.

Cities of Refuge were designated by God.

Way to dance around the question. Please show me where New Testament churches have been a place a refuge for criminals? Please show me where God instructs us to do that.

Billwald, you confuse me. I thought you'd be against the illegal aliens. They steal Union jobs don't they?

 

[tinytim]

Salty, Maryland has a terrible border criminal problem, especially in our area, where migrant border criminals make up a large part of the work force (you know, because there are some jobs those Americans sitting in the Unemployment Office just won't do), so this topic has come up before.

Essentially, our view is that if someone is here illegally, that's a sin and we would encourage them to return to their home country and apply for membership the right way.

If their argument is that they cannot earn enough in their home country to live, then we will support them if they need it. But we cannot be a party to their breaking the law.

I guess because God has put the love for Hispanic Ministry in my heart, this issue is easy for me to get passionate about.
I agree with your statement here.
If one would come to our Hispanic Ministry, and get saved, we would go through the proper channels to get them to be legally here. This teaches the responsibility of the Christian to abide to the law of the land, while at the same time showing Christian kindness...

Here is an article I wrote for our conventions magazine a couple months ago concerning the willingness of Christians to reach out to Latinos.

"Jesus Te Ama... Learn it, Speak it, Live it"
by Tim Barnhouse, pastor,
North Mill Creek Baptist Church (Eastern)

God can speak to you in Walmart. I know because it
happened to me in July 2006. NO, I didn’t hear Him say,
“Clean up on aisle four,” but He did speak to my heart loud and
clear. While standing in line behind a Latino couple with a
young child, I tried to smile at them, but they kept their heads
down. I wondered why, until I witnessed a scene reminiscent of
the civil rights era. The cashier was disrespectful and rude to
this couple. She treated them like dirt, like animals.

Again, I tried to smile, to show them Christ’s love, but they would not
look at me. They walked out of Walmart with their heads low.
With this incident, God got my attention. Please understand
something about me. In April 2006, I became pastor of North
Mill Creek Baptist Church and for the first time in my life, I
moved into an area where there are a lot of Latinos. I was raised
in an area of West Virginia where there were no minorities. I
grew up in a racist family. I remember my uncles and aunts
calling non-whites “monkeys,” “animals,” etc. Even my “Godfearing”
Grandma told me on one occasion that “colored people
don’t have souls.” But I never believed it.

So I wasn’t surprised, while asking people about Hispanics, that I heard racist
statements like, “They need to go back to where they came
from.” Or, “They need to speak English,” or “They are taking
our jobs,” or this strange one, “Those Puerto Ricans come here
and they expect us Americans to change our way of life for
them.” Why is that statement so strange? Because Puerto
Ricans ARE Americans. All of these statements stem from pride
and ignorance. And I promised myself, at that point in my life,
that I would put my heavenly citizenship over my earthly citizenship.


After the incident at Walmart, I wanted to show God’s
love to the Latinos, but what could I do? I didn’t know Spanish,
and without that knowledge, how could I share God’s love? So,
our church started praying for God to make a way for us to minister
to the Latinos. Now, fast-forward to October 2008 - the
first time I met Juan and Denise Aragon. I now realize they are
the answer to my prayer. Juan spoke to our church in December
2008. A few weeks later, Fela Burrueto from ABC/USA
National Ministries spoke to our church and taught us this
phrase in Spanish, “Jesus te ama” (Jesus Loves you). Since
then, the following phrase has been in our bulletins each
Sunday: “Jesus te ama,” ... Learn it, Speak it, Live it.


Over the last year, we have seen God work wonders
through the Eastern Baptist Association. In June, some Hispanic
teens came to our association youth camp, and in July we had
our first Hispanic home Bible study with two families in
Moorefield. Out of this, we have grown to the point where our
meeting place is too small and we are looking for a permanent
place to worship. We can envision a new self sustaining
Hispanic ABC/USA church coming into existence within the
next three to five years! God is moving in the
Moorefield/Petersburg area.

Now, I still can’t speak Spanish well, but I found out I
can communicate without knowing the language. God is amazing
like that! We still have prejudice in our area and probably
always will. I still hear, “Those people need to learn English.”
But now I respond with, “What are you doing to help them
learn?” You see, it is possible for people to help tutor English as
a Second Language (ESL) classes without knowing Spanish.
John Vetter, pastor of Bethel Baptist Church (Eastern), and I
will be taking ESL tutoring classes in January so we can teach
the Latinos English, and at the same time share Christ’s love
with them.

One day, each Christian will stand before Christ and
he may ask us why we didn’t minister to the people around us.
We will not be able to give the excuse, “They were not
American,” because Christ will look at us and say, “I didn’t just
die for Americans.”

We will not be able to give the excuse, “They didn’t speak our language,” because Christ may say,“Why didn’t you learn their language so you could tell them about me?”

We will not be able to give the excuse, “They were
different from us,” because Christ commanded us to witness to
everyone, not just those like us. My prayer is that we will lose
these prejudices and be the children of God He has called us to
be.
“Jesus te ama”… Learn it, Speak it, Live it."

http://wvbc.ab.edu/WV Baptist/My Webs/Current Issue/FEBRUARY-MARCH 2010.pdf Page 4

 

[Robert Snow]

You'll have to forgive billwald. He's used to being in Unions where they break the law all the time and act like they aren't criminals.

Being the son of an immigrant, I guess you don't know much about unions or workers rights. Of course, it's becaue of immigrants that our unions have become so weak. They bring down the wages, I know I work around dozens of them.

 

[matt wade]

Being the son of an immigrant, I guess you don't know much about unions or workers rights. Of course, it's becaue of immigrants that our unions have become so weak. They bring down the wages, I know I work around dozens of them.

Watch it Snow...your liberal tendencies (and hence your racist tendencies) are showing through!

 

[SaggyWoman]

I am a child of an immigrant as well. I am kind of biased.

 

[Robert Snow]

Watch it Snow...your liberal tendencies (and hence your racist tendencies) are showing through!

Just the truth, accept is or not. It doesn't change anything.

 

[donnA]

my great grandparents are from turkey, they entered this country legaly. by entering illegally they show they do not intend on abiding by our laws, they flaunt their illegal activity, and for the most part we do nothing about it

 

[tinytim]

Just curious to all who have commented on this thread...
If you knew someone was Illegal, would you share Christ with them?

 

[donnA]

why not? I've been a part of the hispanic ministry at our old church, I knew full well we had people coming each week who were illegal, I wasn't aware of which ones, the pastor was.

 

[tinytim]

Coool.. the reason I ask is because I know some people that have said they wouldn't. That bothers me.

 

[exscentric]

Seems it is being intimated that due to their illegal status some would not witness to them. Find that hard to believe since we are to share with all that are lost but anyway????

I live in a city with a high ratio of Hispanics. I find them standoffish, arrogant and unfriendly, but then if I were here illegally I would think I might be the same :laugh: I have found it takes a couple dozen times of being friendly before they will even act like they want to interact. I have had to point at pictures to order my breakfast at times.

I also teach a basic computer class that often is heavy in students that speak little if any English. I've done a 12 week course with some that will never speak to me other than when they have to and all will evade questions as simple as what part of town they live in.

It must be hard knowing that trouble could strike at any time for them, though it IS their fault.

I wish all of them would take what they have learned here and go home and change their own country but I'd guess they will be citizens here before the year is up.

In the church? They are like anyone else till our government says differently. I like the thought of showing them their need to take responsibility once they are saved. It boils down to how would you treat anyone that is doing something illegal - being and illegal alien is no different than any other person involved in illegal activities.

 

[Trotter]

You want the law enforced against people you don't like and want a free pass for yourself, right?

Anyway, the thread title . . . do you all also deny and despise the traditional concept of the church as a place of refuge?

Although someone else answered you I will do my own.

what free pass? If I speed I am breaking the law. I will not say I am blameless, but I seldom speed anymore. Was I breaking the law? Yes, I was. Had I been caught I would have had to pay the penalty, not get a government handout or a deal under the table. In the times I was exceeding the speed limit I was a criminal and do not deny it. I broke the law, pure and simple.

The same thing applies for any other law of the land. If I break it I am guilty. I may not be caught, but if I am I will have to pay the penalty for breaking that law. I will have no excuse and no way to avoid it.

Illegals come here outside of proper channels. If they are caught they should have to face the consequences for doing so. They are no better than I am. If I entered Mexico illegally I would be arrested and deported (if I were lucky). The same goes for Canada or any other country. There shouldn't be a difference here.

The cities of refuge were for the Jews, not the church. The catholic church may play that game, but I don't.

If you knew someone was Illegal, would you share Christ with them?

Absolutely. They still need the Lord. We now have ESL (English as a Second Language) classes at our church that I am a part of, and we are doing this very thing. That doesn't change my feelings about them being here illegally, but I would not refuse to share the gospel with them and help them become legal.

 

[righteousdude2]

Sure Would, While Waiting for....

Just curious to all who have commented on this thread...
If you knew someone was Illegal, would you share Christ with them?

... INS to come and arrest them and send them back home. At least they'd be born-again when they return home:laugh:

Actually, without sounding so cold, there is no reason to not hsare the Gospel message, that is what we're called to do, Tiny.

And that was a heart searching question. Thanks for asking!

 

[matt wade]

Just the truth, accept is or not. It doesn't change anything.

So, according to you ("Being the son of an immigrant, I guess you don't know much about unions or workers rights."), immigrants, or sons of immigrants, don't know much about unions or workers rights. That's your truth Snow?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So you are in favor of illegal immigration because they are a source of cheap labor?

You approve of someone exploiting other people if it keeps the price of lettuce lower?

Why stop there? Why not advocate for bringing back slavery?

No, I'm not in favor of it. I'm just saying the real reason not much is being done about it is because of the adverse effects on our economy. People always come up with simple answers for problems like these only to find out they are not so simple.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No you don't

Yes I do. My family immigrated here legally from Nicaragua back in the 30's. I grew up around immigrants legal and illegal for a time when I lived in california. There is a whole underground economy that people just so conviently ignore when it comes to immigrants (illegal). Some of it good some of it bad. Most politicians understand the idiosyncrasies with regard to this but unless the populace is personally affected all they see is the side that shows misuse of emergency rooms etc... Which is why no one really wants to touch it. Accept to bluster.
However, don't believe me and build your wall see what happens when our country takes an economic tail dive.