I'm leaving the Baptist fold...

Taufgesinnter,

Thank you for taking the time to write. First off, I don’t feel qualified to debate you, so I have taken all of my repsonses directly from the official writings of the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite. Please don’t assume that just because I type a response that means I 100% disagree with you, I may just be attempting to clarify or put a doctrine in their own words.

Before you go, I'd like to make sure you're aware, Timothy1769, that the Holdemans (Church of God in Christ, Mennonite) are the Landmarkists of the Anabaptist world. IOW, were you aware that they regard themselves as the only true Mennonites?

"HOW MAY THE TRUE CHURCH BE KNOWN

This question has been the subject of much debate and discussion. The multiplicity of churches and religious groups has given rise to much confusion. Thus, it is necessary to use the adjective 'true' when speaking of the church of God.

In the beginning of the church it was not so. Had the spirit of the early church after Pentecost prevailed, there would be only one church today. "And the continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread and in prayers" (Acts 2:42).

In the same spirit Paul wrote an exhortation to the Ephesians, He told them to endeavor "to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph 4:3-6)

TRUE DOCTRINE IS THE KEY

God commanded Moses to make the tabernacle according to the patter shown to him on the Mountain (Heb. 8:5). Likewise, the church must be built according to the pattern of God's Word if it is to be the true church of God. God has designed her, and He has set her standard. Therefore, a close examination of the doctrines of the Word is necessary to discern the New Testament church.

Menno Simons, the sixteenth century Dutch Anabaptist leader, briefly notes six signs of the true church:

(1) In the first place, the sign by which the church of Christ may be known is the salutary and unadulterated doctrine of His holy and divine Word… In short, where the church of Christ is, there His Word is preached purely and rightly…

The Complete Writings of Menno Simons, pp 739”

...

Another sign of the true church is the grace to effectively administer scriptural discipline. Mennon Simons writes that when “transgressors and willful dispisers… are known and then not excluded after proper admonition, but [are] allowed to remain in the fellowship of their religion, then, in my opinion, she ceases to be the church of Christ” (The Complete Writings of Menno Simons, p. 746)
P 181, Bible Doctrine and Practice”


It goes without saying, then, that they have serious doubts (to put it mildly) about the salvation of anyone outside their own denomination, especially if they're not even another kind of Mennonite.

“We also consider it wrong to take members away from a church of God. As long as such scattered children of God believe that they have been baptized to a true organized church of God, we refer them back;
1896 General Conference”

“All who are saved are in the kingdom, but not everyone in the kingdom is in the church.
…
It would seem that one cannot refuse the church and remain in the kingdom indefinitely.
…
This, of course, applies when one is knowledgeable of the church through the Holy Ghost.
Pg. 169, Bible Doctrine and Practice”

“No one dare presume that he is in the kingdom because of his own goodness, church membership, birth lineage, or any personal merit.
Pg. 156, Bible Doctrine and Practice”

I just didn't know if you knew that already. I have to admit that they do wonderful work with tract evangelism, publishing tracts in dozens and dozens of languages around the world. They also have many other good things about them, such as you've already mentioned, and some you haven't, such as their not being KJVO—

“This conference does not accept the Revised Standard Version or any other modern translation of the Bible as our standard or authoritative Bible. We consider the King James Version to be the most reliable and recommend it for general use. 1974 General Conference”

but they are far more exclusivist and exclusionist than even the Old Order Amish. So I just want to be sure you're going into this with your eyes wide open. I hope you realize I'm only giving facts, not picking on them. I have a friend who is Holdeman, and a very nice man, but I've never worshipped with him since he is forbidden to attend any outside church.

“THE ONE CHURCH DOCTRINE DOES NOT EXCLUDE ANYONE

When properly perceived with the heart, this doctrine prohibits boasting and judgment of others. Remember, the oneness of the church of God arises from His attributes and is not man’s invention. Man has nothing to claim credit for. And the invitation is open to all men to come and believe. None are excluded, nor is anyone preferred because of a particular background. “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:35). All such are eligible candidates for church membership.

God would desire to gather as many of His scattered children as possible into His one great fold. Jesus said “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16). However, being a member of the church does not of itself save anyone. The Scriptures warn, “Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee” (Rom. 11:30-21)

Those who come to knowledge of the truth are under great obligation to walk worthy of it. One should continually endeavor “to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4:3).

Pg 183-184, Bible Doctrine and Practice”

Anyway, my best wishes go with you.

And with you as well. Again, thanks for taking the time to write

 

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Timothy - I thought I remembered that you were CAlvinist.

Scott,

You remember correctly After my conversion I was pretty much an R.C. Sproul junkie, and more or less accepted everything he taught without much reflection. Calvinism IMO is a solid theological position with much biblical support. But honestly there are a number of 'problem' scriptures which when taken at face value contradict its teachings. I value the truth of God's revelation more than I do man's reason or apparent logical consistency. If God says we are elect from the foundation of the world, OK, that's true. If He also says whosoever will, let him drink freely of the waters of life, well that's true too. Perhaps we're all just too stupid to put it all together properly, and should simply accept both because God says so. That's my position, anyway.

What do you think about the Mennonite position about losing one's salvation?

The same general argument above IMO applies to eternal security as well. There's much biblical support for the concept, but there's also a number of problem scriptures that when taken at face value apparently contradict the idea.

I must admit these kinds of theological wranglings don't hold much interest for me anymore. I just want to live for Jesus the best I can.

 

Jailminister,

That was my original intention, but at this point I don't think that's what God wants me to do. That said, there is much I still admire and appreciate in the fundamentalist Baptist position.

 

I agree with you that church policy cannot make anyone holy.

 

Thanks to everyone for their prayers, concerns and blessings. I'm convinced we'll see each other again under better circumstances God bless you all!