I'm no Calvinist but...

[psalms109:31]

God ask us to believe

God has no problem with us believing and encourages it and He doesn't see it taken away from the grace of God. It is only men who have a problem with it.

 

[jbh28]

Now jbh I find our common ground, I would consider myself low-cal (non-fattening) and I agree with you God through the Spirit stirs man's heart into a position where man then makes a decision to accept God's grace or reject it. After all Jesus told Peter His statement of faith was not given to Him by man but by God.

I like "low-cal" too. It's healthier for you

 

[MrJim]

Yeah, sorta not the idea I had when I posted...point wasnt' the calvinist/arminian thing but rather baptist preaching practice. Maybe try to steer it a bit.

He did it again two wednesdays ago (couldn't get there last night), going on and on about loving our neighbor as ourselves, on and on about it, then doing an about face with the parable of the 10 virgins and how the 5 wouldn't share and why should they..the other 5 deserve to miss out..he said it was like in the south with hurricane season and you wouldn't share your generator fuel with someone that waited too long to get some...and I'm sitting there like "dude--wait, what?"...it's getting kinda funny to listen but I don't speak up 'cause I'm the new guy..I guess among the ABC & SBC & Reformed Baptist I have to give the A+ to the Reformed Baptist preacher I sat under as far as exegesis goes.

That being said I've become a little underwhelmed with the baptist church all together. My expectations were higher with the SBC but in the end not a huge improvement over the ABC we left..probably just me though.

 

[menageriekeeper]

God through the Spirit stirs man's heart into a position where man then makes a decision to accept God's grace or reject it.

Make that quote say God through the Word stirs man's heart into a position where man then makes a decision to accept God's grace or reject it and we'll have common ground. (I believe the Spirit's work begins AFTER salvation)

he said it was like in the south with hurricane season and you wouldn't share your generator fuel with someone that waited too long to get some...and I'm sitting there like "dude--wait, what?"...

I gotta tell ya, that would have made for one of my "pack it up and walk out the door" moments!

 

[Whowillgo]

Make that quote say God through the Word stirs man's heart into a position where man then makes a decision to accept God's grace or reject it and we'll have common ground. (I believe the Spirit's work begins AFTER salvation)



We are close my friend and that makes me very happy cause I really want you to go to heaven:thumbs::thumbs:

Joh 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I believe the Spirit works through the word. Fair enough?

 

[menageriekeeper]

I believe the Spirit works through the word. Fair enough?

Fair enough!

 

[Winman]

No, a person isn't saved unconditionally. Faith is required for salvation. Election ONLY applies to the saved and not the lost. If there was no election, ALL would end up in hell because no one will ever seek after God on their own. No one would ever put their faith in Christ. No one would ever repent. Only those that put their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved, and no one would do that without the enabling by the Holy Spirit.

But according to Calvinism, unless God first elects you it is impossible to have saving faith for salvation.

And blaming the unelect for their inability would be about the same as a person allowing their one month old infant to starve to death, then telling the police it wasn't their fault because there was plenty of food in the house and all the baby had to do was get up and get it for himself.

How anybody can believe doctrine like this is beyond me.

 

[jbh28]

But according to Calvinism, unless God first elects you it is impossible to have saving faith for salvation.

Actually, if it wasn't for God, it would be impossible to have saving faith for salvation. Those that God doesn't elect have no desire to come to Christ. Your statement seems to assume that a person would want to come to Christ, but God wouldn't let him because he isn't elect. I know there are a few that believe this(I met one in my first encounter with a Calvinist) but most Calvinist are not that way. And those, like myself, that believe in election but not all of Calvinism don't believe that either.

I believe that God will save anyone who wants to be saved.

Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

And blaming the unelect for their inability would be about the same as a person allowing their one month old infant to starve to death, then telling the police it wasn't their fault because there was plenty of food in the house and all the baby had to do was get up and get it for himself.

How anybody can believe doctrine like this is beyond me.

Let me ask you a few questions based on your response for you to think about. But first, the person goes to hell because they are sinners. Because God has elected to save some doesn't change that. I gave you an example of having to pay a bill. If you have a bill to pay, it is because of some service you have. If I elect to pay your neighbors bills but not yours, you still have to pay your bill because you received a service.

1. Is God able to save everyone?
2. If not, who keeps Him from saving everyone.
If so, why doesn't he save everyone?

See, either God is not able to save everyone(which makes Him no sovereign nor all powerful) or God chooses not to save everyone.

 

[Rippon]

The hidden truth is that the elect that are going to be saved from the foundation of the world are believers.

What is hidden truth? Is it not readily apparent from the Scriptures that those who become believers are the elect --- who were so before the world was formed?

 

[psalms109:31]

Chosen

He foreknew us the believers who are being saved and those who do not is crafted out of it and those who were cut out of it is for unbelief.

Believers are the one's chosen before the foundation of the world and if God didn't know who we are He wouldn't be God.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. We are His messenger. Don't you just want to praise God that He does love the world and you are His messenger to bring the message and whosoever believes will be saved.

 

[psalms109:31]

Preordained Believed

Those who He preordained believed those who are meek and humble who trust in the Lord, those who do not lean on thier own understanding but trust in the Lord. He has also hidden the truth from the wise and learned. So please trust in Jesus even over your own understanding or beliefs.

 

[Winman]

Those that God doesn't elect have no desire to come to Christ.

You have just confirmed what I said, the deciding factor in salvation in Calvinism is whether God elects you or passes you by.

When you say "whosoever will" you do not mean 100% of all people, you mean only those who God imposed faith upon. Non-Cals like myself believe the gospel is open to 100% of all mankind and that all men have the ability to believe if they so choose to do so.

Your statement seems to assume that a person would want to come to Christ, but God wouldn't let him because he isn't elect.

We have had people right here on this forum say they wanted to believe on Jesus for years but couldn't.

I wanted to believe the bible for years but could not until I received the HS. And in fact, most atheists I have talked to also want to believe the bible but it doesn't make sense to them. So you are wrong again.

That was written by Carico, a fellow Calvinist in post #50 of the thread titled "Where does believing faith come from".

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1467800#post1467800

Thousands of people have testified that they sought the Lord for years before they came to understand the gospel and trusted Jesus.

See, you believe a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe when no such thing is shown in scripture. In fact, the scriptures show people who believed on Christ who did not yet have the Holy Spirit.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Believers did not receive the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentacost after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified. Yet you can find many people who believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given to them.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

The Samaritans believed, and the scriptures even explain why, "for the saying of the woman".

Did she have the power to regenerate them?

And then in verse 41 it says many more believed "because of his own word".

This teaching that a man MUST be regenerated before he has the ability to believe on Jesus is absolutely unscriptural.

 

[jbh28]

You have just confirmed what I said, the deciding factor in salvation in Calvinism is whether God elects you or passes you by.

In Salvation, yes. People go to hell because of their sins. Whether their is salvation or not, that is why people go to hell. If God didn't save anyone (and He could have done that if He wanted to. He is under no obligation to save anyone)people would still go to hell because of their sins. Election doesn't change that any more than my example of paying your bills changed why you have to pay the bill.

When you say "whosoever will" you do not mean 100% of all people, you mean only those who God imposed faith upon. Non-Cals like myself believe the gospel is open to 100% of all mankind and that all men have the ability to believe if they so choose to do so.

You don't mean 100% of all people either. I'm pretty sure you don't think everybody will be saved. And I also believe "that all men have the ability to believe if they so choose to do so." I don't deny that at all. The question is what makes a person want to believe, and why does this work on some and not others.

We have had people right here on this forum say they wanted to believe on Jesus for years but couldn't.

Then they didn't REALLY want to believe. I want to be good. I don't want to sin. But I sin every day. Am I being forced to sin, or am I freely choosing to sin? I have a big desire to not sin, but at individual moments, I choose to sin. I do this because in that moment, I wanted to sin more than I wanted to do right. We ALWAYS choose what we want at any given moment.

Example: Someone comes to you with a gun and demands all you money. Now, do you really want to give him all your money? Not really, but at that moment, you want to give him your money more than any other option available to you.

That was written by Carico, a fellow Calvinist in post #50 of the thread titled "Where does believing faith come from".

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1467800#post1467800

Thousands of people have testified that they sought the Lord for years before they came to understand the gospel and trusted Jesus.

See, you believe a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe when no such thing is shown in scripture. In fact, the scriptures show people who believed on Christ who did not yet have the Holy Spirit.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Believers did not receive the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentacost after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified. Yet you can find many people who believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given to them.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

The Samaritans believed, and the scriptures even explain why, "for the saying of the woman".

Did she have the power to regenerate them?

And then in verse 41 it says many more believed "because of his own word".

This teaching that a man MUST be regenerated before he has the ability to believe on Jesus is absolutely unscriptural.

I don't teach that you must be regenerated before in the sense that you have regeneration without faith and repentance. I say that salvation happens at the same time. The Bible does say that man is unable to come unless drawn. So no, not all men have the ability(is unable) to come to Christ unless he is drawn(which means to attract to cause to come) by the Father. All those that are drawn(which means they came freely, not against their will) will be raised up in the last day.(John 6). Ephesians 2 gives a very clear understanding of what happens at salvation. Before we are saved, we are unable to come to Christ. This is because of your sinful nature. We are free to choose withing the limits our nature places on us. When we are saved, we are quickened(or made alive) when we are saved. It is God that does this. We were dead in our trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:4-5
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"​

As I said, I'm not a Calvinist. I do believe in election because I believe the Bible clearly teaches it. I'm saved because the Lord saved me. It's not because I was smart enough to get saved. It was because the Lord changed me. The Lord drew me to him. The Lord is able to draw everyone(meaning all individuals), but we know that won't happen. God is able to save everyone, but we know that won't happen.

 

[AresMan]

But according to Calvinism, unless God first elects you it is impossible to have saving faith for salvation.

God could have chosen to elect NNE. In that case, He still would have been fully vindicated because justice would still be served. Agree?

And blaming the unelect for their inability would be about the same as a person allowing their one month old infant to starve to death, then telling the police it wasn't their fault because there was plenty of food in the house and all the baby had to do was get up and get it for himself.

How anybody can believe doctrine like this is beyond me.

The unelect (as the elect) are blameworthy for their purposeful, voluntary sin against God. The just punishment is hell for everyone. The atonement is icing on the cake. Theoretically, according to perfect justice, the atonement could have never been. It is an added blessing to people whereas NNE deserves it. Grace and mercy are something that simply cannot be demanded of God from the logicality of the fullness of things. God did not owe us anything. He did not owe a single person anything. The fact that He atoned for sinners is something praiseworthy and glorious to Him--not something that anyone could justly demand or obligate from God morally in one's standing of defense.

The better analogy is that you have two people who committed the same crime. Both fully deserve just punishment.

The son of the judge who brought sentence volunteers to make restitution on behalf of one of the two criminals. This allows the one criminal to go free--purely by mercy and grace! The other still faces just punishment.

Does the fact that the son made restitution for one criminal OBLIGATE him to make restitution for both? Of course not! NEITHER of them deserve a bit of it! They BOTH deserve the punishment.

In the case of BOTH justice is completely satisfied. Justice was served on the one who went free in mercy because another made the restitution. Justice was also served on the one faced punishment. The punishment still fit the crime.

To argue in any way that the son has an obligation of ANY kind--moral or otherwise--to make restitution for something he had never done on behalf of ANYONE who could never deserve it is utterly ridiculous. The son had no obligation to make restitution for one of the criminals, and likewise, he had no obligation to make restitution for both. Making restitution for one does not, then, obligate him to make restitution for the other. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Winman]

God could have chosen to elect NNE. In that case, He still would have been fully vindicated because justice would still be served. Agree?

I completely disagree with this. God cannot be unfaithful to himself. And I believe God is obligated to save everyone he possibly can because he is a loving, perfectly moral being.

God is bound by his own moral laws, he cannot just do anything he wants as some here falsely teach. He cannot lie for example, he does not tempt a man to sin. God has commanded us to warn other men, and God does not sit back idly and just let men perish.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

God does not have one set of rules for men and another for himself. Jesus lived under the same exact laws as the Jews were required to live. God must warn men as a good and loving moral being.

But we are not puppets or robots, else love could not exist. Love requires choice. You can't force someone to love you, they have to do it of their own free will.

God loves us so much he gave his own Son to pay for our sins. But he will not force this gift upon us, we have to choose it of our own free will.

But saying God did not have to give Jesus to die for us to save us is nonsense, God must always be faithful to who he is.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Even if not one man on earth ever decided to accept Jesus as Saviour, Jesus would still have died for us, he cannot deny himself.

This is one of the most serious errors taught by Calvinism.

 

[jbh28]

I completely disagree with this. God cannot be unfaithful to himself. And I believe God is obligated to save everyone he possibly can because he is a loving, perfectly moral being.

Wrong! God is not OBLIGATED to save anyone. Why do you think he is obligated to send His Son to die for sins that I made. Why is He obligated to save my soul when I DESERVE to be in Hell? If God saved no one, He would be perfectly fine to do just that. We do not deserve heaven nor the chance to go to heaven. It's called mercy, grace. It's not deserved. This is the fundamental flaw with your thinking here by your statement. You think that somehow God is obligated to show mercy. God doesn't have to show unmerited mercy to be a loving, perfectly moral being.

God is bound by his own moral laws, he cannot just do anything he wants as some here falsely teach. He cannot lie for example, he does not tempt a man to sin.

God can do anything He wants or He isn't sovereign. That is what we truly teach. God cannot lie. That is true because God doesn't want to lie. He has said that lying is wrong. He doesn't lie because it is wrong, it is wrong because He doesn't lie. God = good. We learn what is right and wrong from God. He is not bound to any laws except the ones HE has made.

God has commanded us to warn other men, and God does not sit back idly and just let men perish.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Of course God doesn't sit back, otherwise NNE would be saved. God has called everyone to repent.

God does not have one set of rules for men and another for himself. Jesus lived under the same exact laws as the Jews were required to live. God must warn men as a good and loving moral being.

In the sense you are speaking of yes. (We are not to be worshiped, but God is to be worshiped...An example of a difference.)

And God has called everyman to repent. No one is without excuse.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

But we are not puppets or robots, else love could not exist. Love requires choice. You can't force someone to love you, they have to do it of their own free will.

And no one teaches that we are robots. We freely choose to love God after we have been enabled to do so. Before we are saved, we do not love God. You "free will" before you are saved is still bound by your nature. And your nature will never love God on his own.

Romans 3:10-11
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.​

God loves us so much he gave his own Son to pay for our sins. But he will not force this gift upon us, we have to choose it of our own free will.

There is no biblical basis for the last part of your statement. The first part is right on, but the last part is inaccurate per Romans 3 and John 6.

John 6:44,65
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.​

But saying God did not have to give Jesus to die for us to save us is nonsense, God must always be faithful to who he is.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Even if not one man on earth ever decided to accept Jesus as Saviour, Jesus would still have died for us, he cannot deny himself.

This is one of the most serious errors taught by Calvinism.

This is one of the most serious errors taught by you. You are saying that Jesus had to die. Why is that. Any Scripture to say why God HAD to give us UNDESERVED mercy?

 

[psalms109:31]

God's love

Revelation 3:20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

 

[MrJim]

:sleep: don't you people ever get tired of trying to prove you're right over this?:BangHead:

It's not the point of my thread and I'll find some mod somewhere to close the thing.

 

[Winman]

Wrong! God is not OBLIGATED to save anyone. Why do you think he is obligated to send His Son to die for sins that I made. Why is He obligated to save my soul when I DESERVE to be in Hell? If God saved no one, He would be perfectly fine to do just that. We do not deserve heaven nor the chance to go to heaven. It's called mercy, grace. It's not deserved. This is the fundamental flaw with your thinking here by your statement. You think that somehow God is obligated to show mercy. God doesn't have to show unmerited mercy to be a loving, perfectly moral being.

Can God go against his own will?

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You are correct, we all deserve to be in hell. But God still loves us and is not willing that any should perish.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God cannot be unfaithful to himself. Regardless of the fact that we are terrible sinners deserving of hell, he loves us and is bound by his own love and mercy to try and save all of us. This is why he sent his Son Jesus into the world to pay for our sins.

God can do anything He wants or He isn't sovereign. That is what we truly teach. God cannot lie. That is true because God doesn't want to lie. He has said that lying is wrong. He doesn't lie because it is wrong, it is wrong because He doesn't lie. God = good. We learn what is right and wrong from God. He is not bound to any laws except the ones HE has made.

Nonsense. You are correct God doesn't want to lie, but God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

And saying lying isn't wrong is foolish. It is against the commandment to lie.

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

And how you can believe God chooses to pass by men before they are even born or done anything wrong, condemning them to eternal torment is good is astounding.

Of course God doesn't sit back, otherwise NNE would be saved. God has called everyone to repent.

You don't really believe that. You believe it is impossible to repent unless God calls a man with an "effectual" calling. If he really wanted all men to repent, then he would enable all men to repent with this "effectual" calling.

And no one teaches that we are robots. We freely choose to love God after we have been enabled to do so. Before we are saved, we do not love God. You "free will" before you are saved is still bound by your nature. And your nature will never love God on his own.

Are you really listening to what you are saying? You are saying we have free will but it is bound. That is an impossiblility and contradiction. If your will is bound by your nature, it is not free.

There is no biblical basis for the last part of your statement. The first part is right on, but the last part is inaccurate per Romans 3 and John 6.

The scriptures speak of a man choosing God many times.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Calvinism has got you so mixed up, you think you have free will, but that free will is bound to make only one decision. That is impossible and fantastically illogical. If you can only make one decision, then your will is not free. Joshua knew what he was saying to these people, he told them to make a choice. They could choose God, or they could choose to worship false gods.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

It is plain as day here, these people could choose life, or they could choose death. Calvinsim would have you believe that God through his prophets was telling the people to make a choice when God knew it was impossible for them to make a choice. That is utterly ridiculous.

 

[jbh28]

Can God go against his own will?

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You are correct, we all deserve to be in hell. But God still loves us and is not willing that any should perish.

Not willing, what does that mean? It means God is not wanting. Obviously, it doesn't mean that God has decreed that none perish. Secondly, the context of the verse is very likely only referring to the ones spoken about in the passage and not all men meaning every single person ever.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God cannot be unfaithful to himself. Regardless of the fact that we are terrible sinners deserving of hell, he loves us and is bound by his own love and mercy to try and save all of us. This is why he sent his Son Jesus into the world to pay for our sins.

But God chose to do this. He wasn't obligated to do this. This passage says what God didn't, it doesn't say he had to do it. Who was forcing God to do this? Only God said he would do it this way. He was under no obligation to do it.

God can do anything He wants or He isn't sovereign. That is what we truly teach. God cannot lie. That is true because God doesn't want to lie. He has said that lying is wrong. He doesn't lie because it is wrong, it is wrong because He doesn't lie. God = good. We learn what is right and wrong from God. He is not bound to any laws except the ones HE has made.

Nonsense. You are correct God doesn't want to lie, but God cannot lie.Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Did you even read what I said. What did I say that was "nonsense." You said God cannot lie, which is what I said. But I also said that isn't because somebody said God couldn't lie, but because God said he isn't going to lie. God is the one that said that lying is wrong. I repeat again...He doesn't lie because it is wrong, it is wrong because He doesn't lie.

And saying lying isn't wrong is foolish. It is against the commandment to lie. Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

And where did I say that lying isn't wrong?

And how you can believe God chooses to pass by men before they are even born or done anything wrong, condemning them to eternal torment is good is astounding.

God condemns people to hell for their sin. Please stop misrepresenting me. Respond to what I believe, not what some hyper has said they believed. I repeat, people go to hell for their sins. God is not obligated to save anyone. He has chosen to save, but that is His choice.

You don't really believe that. You believe it is impossible to repent unless God calls a man with an "effectual" calling. If he really wanted all men to repent, then he would enable all men to repent with this "effectual" calling.

Why don't you respond to what I said instead of telling me what I believe. It is impossible because man doesn't want to. Are you saying that God is UNABLE to enable all men to repent?

Are you really listening to what you are saying? You are saying we have free will but it is bound. That is an impossiblility and contradiction. If your will is bound by your nature, it is not free.

Are you reading what I'm writing? I didn't say we have a free will. Technically, only God has a free will, but even then, He is bound by his nature(but he is the one that set that nature, so it is still free). We are free to choose anything we want. In fact, we ALWAYS choose what we want. Are you saying your will is not bound by your nature? How would that even be possible?

The scriptures speak of a man choosing God many times.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

And your point. Why don't your start reading what I'm writing. I have never said man doesn't make choices. In fact, I have said the man does make choices.

Calvinism has got you so mixed up, you think you have free will, but that free will is bound to make only one decision. That is impossible and fantastically illogical.

As I said, I'm not a Calvinist. Also, we are free to choose in the bounds of our nature. You cannot deny this. You ALWAYS choose what you want. Your desires are from your nature.

If you can only make one decision, then your will is not free.

non sequitur.

Joshua knew what he was saying to these people, he told them to make a choice. They could choose God, or they could choose to worship false gods.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

It is plain as day here, these people could choose life, or they could choose death. Calvinsim would have you believe that God through his prophets was telling the people to make a choice when God knew it was impossible for them to make a choice. That is utterly ridiculous.

Straw man. I never said men don't have choices. The Bible CLEARLY teaches that the natural man will never seek after God.

btw...you never answered why God is OBLIGATED to save anyone. You showed that He going to do it, but not why he was forced to do it.