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I'm too dogmatic!
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PreachTony
Active Member
Thank you, Evan. I've tried to offer you advice in the nicest way I can. I have listened to your sermons, though not all of them. Sometimes I only have time to listen to parts of them. You accuse me of lying, yet you then say that I "can't" listen to your sermons. I can only speak to what I've seen from you here. You have indeed talked up how you like to be confrontational in your ministry. I wish I could remember the thread and post where you've written this, but at the moment I cannot recall it.
It just baffles me that you come here looking for advice, and then when you get it you start handing out rabbits and calling people liars. I'm glad you called me a dirty liar. I will not offer you advice again. I pray God will bless you, but I'll be honest, bud, you appear to be on a road to a miserable spiritual life by your own actions.
My apology for misspeaking. I like to be Biblical is more the term.
Listen to the sermon.
http://www.cerm.info/sermons/audio/easter_reasons.WMA
And here is where you exercise the self control that is going to make you the effective Evangelist God means for you to be, my friend: overlook what people say about you, and focus on what God would have you say, which is to preach Christ and Him crucified, even as Paul presented the supreme example. There is a time for confrontation, but let's keep Christ the center of that confrontation.
I think Tony means well, and is trying to be helpful, so sometimes we give people the benefit of the doubt.
You have a gift that probably 99% of the Body is terrified of exercising...preaching to strangers. It draws criticism and ridicule from all sides. I have had Pastors speak derisively about Evangelists, primarily because they are not usually in situations where they have to deal with the everyday headaches Pastor's do. It might be likened to the difference between a stay at home mom and dad, who is away all day and doesn't have to deal with what goes on while he is gone, lol.
For me, a criticism of Evangelists might be that some feel they have to step on toes, and I do not see it that way. The Word of God steps on toes, and therefore feel that the singular focus is always simply presenting the Word of God, which a few here have actually mentioned in the post.
So I think some here are trying to be helpful, but sometimes it just doesn't come through as well as they might want it to. So give them the benefit of the doubt, and I am sure that as all of us do this, friendship, which should be a given among born again believers, will be made.
Do this: in the posts that come in, ignore what you see as negative, look for the positive contributions some are offering, and see how that changes the discussion. When we are not in an anonymous situation where we might not speak more freely, we exercise self control for a number of reasons. If that reason is because our antagonist is, as that great poet Colin Haye said one time, "Six foot four and full of muscle," then that is not a good reason, lol. But if we consider, "Would I say this if this person was standing right in front of me," and cannot answer yes, then we should not say it. And when people say offensive things, the question is whether that impacts what we do. And for you, it is quite clear you have not let opposition to what I see as a calling from God hinder you in that pursuit, and I encourage you to continue in that.
So just respond to what is positive, and ignore what is negative. Some things in a format like this are going to be misunderstood, and again, I think Tony is sincerely trying to be helpful. Just try it and see how it goes.
God bless.
PreachTony
Active Member
Here are two threads with examples of Evan talking up being confrontational:
Should I ask forgiveness or CONFRONT this person???
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90648
The great sin of evangelicals
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2184278
Look, I agree that the gospel is confrontational. But I prefer to let God do the confronting. I've found that people are far more receptive to the word if I'm just witnessing or preaching. If I get in their face they tend to turn from the message.
Perhaps that is what Evan means by being confrontational. I've always read his text on confronting as actually getting in people's faces. If I have read that wrong, then apologies.
But Darrell, there is a long history on this board of Evan posting things desiring a response, then getting upset when he doesn't get the response he wanted. It's something we're all guilty of...
Got a message for you entitled "The Five I wills."
Text would be...
Isaiah 14:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
...and...
Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
This would be great for open-air preaching. Present Lucifer's "I wills," which gives you the basis of sin and it's introduction to man and presents it as preceding creation. Then present the "I wills" of God which is done, not because of what we do, but for His Holy Name's sake.
The finish is raising one hand and summing up the I wills of Lucifer, then raising the other hand and summing up the I wills of God, and then stating, "Right there in that center is Christ on the Cross."
The upraised hands being the picture of that.
And good job (speaking about the message). You stand probably in the biggest minority in the body as an open-air Preacher. Few have the courage to do this.
And about the only critique I might offer would be in reference to the statement "There's no such thing as 'Cultural Christianity' " is something I would disagree, because many are engaged in cultural Christianity which is a false assurance based on religious ritual. Just as a suggestion I would suggest you change that to "Don't think Cultural Christianity will save you."
And explain what it is. An example would in making the point "Many say 'I grew up in the Church, I've been a Christian since I was a child.' "
Another would be "My whole family has always been Christian."
Many people think church attendance is a validation of salvation.
But again, good job. Keep it up and don't get discouraged. You are growing in Christ and as you grow God will perfect your preaching through familiarity with the Word and understanding of His will.
God bless.
PreachTony
Active Member
I can't disagree with that. Anyone who preaches the word spiritually and biblically is naturally going to be seen as confrontational by worldly people who don't want to be convicted of their sins.
Apologies for my terseness in this thread.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
You interpret everything as either an attack on you or just people don't understand you or your church. I have plenty of experience in the setting you are in. Discussions with you are about fruitless as an apple tree in the middle of a desert. The problem is, I understand your situation better than you would like to admit. My advice could free you to do so much for the Lord. But again... pearls and swine. Until next time.
Thank you for your advice and for this text. I will take a closer look at it. Thanks again.
Again, let the past be the past. I feel you were sincerely trying to be helpful, and I commend you for that, just keep in mind that you are playing a larger role than you might think. God uses each of us in the effort of growth on behalf of others. And there should be a desire for us to become a unified front against our common enemy, and sometimes forums can achieve the exact opposite. If we were at war against a foreign country, we would not destroy each other but have a base-line of unity that goes beyond minor issues and keeps a focus on the larger issue. Unity in wartime can be seen in history, even recently when the Towers were bombed. At that time America had a unity perhaps never before seen, but it did not last.
We should have that unity, even if we disagree on certain issues. Sometimes we allow those issues to cloud the unity God commands of us, as well as the love.
That doesn't mean I think we should overlook issues that rise up, but let's make sure we do not contribute to those issues rising up. It's easy in a format such as a Doctrinal Discussion Forum for antagonism to arise, and sometimes that just becomes the pattern, and it shouldn't be.
And what is the Biblical model? God uses men.
Take a look on Strong's online Concordance at the word disputing. Paul was, without question...a disputer. He openly confronts Peter for hypocrisy (dissimulation). Calls a Priest a whited wall, lol. If I were him I would not have apologized, likely.
Evangelist is a unique member of the body, and frankly I think we need more like him. He can be an example to others who have been so called to preach in that way. He is going to be a target of ridicule and mockery from our enemies, he shouldn't be from us. That he may still be growing doesn't change the fact of what he does, and how few there are that do this.
Everyone has different approaches, all carefully crafted through the leading of God in the growth we are going through. I don't have a singular approach, but treat every encounter as unique, and just try to allow God to lead the conversation. Sometimes it is very confrontational. Sometimes it is pleasant. And usually I know that some of these discussions will change the relationship.
And by the way, I am every bit as irritating in real life as I am here.
Sometimes that is just necessary. And the truth is that every time you give an opposing view what it is usually taken as is a statement of "You are wrong and I am right." That's just how people usually react.
It's not really an issue. Let the past be the past.
When I first started witnessing, due to what I can openly say was immaturity, I was very confrontational in a number of ways. Burned a few bridged along the way. I mean, passing out Chick tracts to Catholics can be a very bad idea sometimes, lol. Okay...all the time.
I drove my own brother away with being, not direct, but derisive. What I have learned is that while we do not abandon the truth at any time, we might question our zeal in being derisive about one thing to glorify another. I've learned we don't have to hold someone or some group in derision to glorify Christ, we can skip the former and focus on the latter. It is just a basic principle, you'll never impress anyone by be derisive about someone else. Because it is going to be taken as contrary to what Christ represents. What usually happens is that whoever you're talking to will then hold both in derision.
So if we look back through your early posts there is nothing you might be ashamed of saying?
I know when I first began going to forums I had a lot of growing up to do. Still do.
But that's the point, we are all growing, and what we need is help in that growth.
As far as creating threads to justify one's views through consensus, this is typical, and all of us have done it. And that should clarify to you that what is desired is...unity. And where else would a born again believer seek that unity but from those that he/she feels are also believers. Just typical in all of us.
Yes sir, it is.
God bless.
Calling someone a liar is one of the worst things we can do, lol. And admitting error one of the hardest.
It's true that we can point out errors and misrepresentation of others, but a simple principle in Doctrinal Debate and Discussion is we are dealing with the most volatile subject man can engage in, and each person's views are, of course, something closer to them than anything else, especially among those who believe.
Because our understanding has at it's root our eternal destiny, and we all like to feel that God has led us to the truth. We still set aside what I feel is a fleshly perspective we had before being saved, which is that we are special and have not erred as others have. But as we grow in Christ and the Word we understand we are special, but not for the reasons we once held. We used to think we were the good guy in our own little movie, and now we understand that the only One good is God, who shows us in His Word exactly why He had to die for our sins.
We are all found to be liars sometimes, lol, and it is not until the Lord reveals where we are lying to ourselves, still, that we begin to understand the reality of His holiness in comparison with ours, which, is imputed, not inherent.
God bless.
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