I'm wondering about something

The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

<You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?>

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!

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Calvinist here have come out in strong favor of "God so hates hates hates" ( A quote from THEM).

They have come out saying sure God does not care for that little girl "because after all the FEW OF MATT 7 end up being so very very many in our eyes"!!

They have come out ridiculing the God who "WEEPS" over the lost as "too soft"!

Calvinism has exposed its ugly side on this topic.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

The wages of sin is death and babies die. The age of accountability begins at conception as proved by babies dying.

You have no scriptural warrant for claiming there is an age of accountability.
Need it don't you? Ain't there is it? Babies die Bob accountable to God or show us the scripture. You believe in election based on age!

Then Eli said, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:16.
Go on about this as long as you like man we believe in scripture not feelings. Eli knew that it brings God glory to say, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." But you don't do you? Whatever happens later is, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes.", not good enough for you is it? It was good enough for Eli when he heard the news that his kids were going to Hell but then he was in submission to God.

You are in open rebellion. Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Oh yes you are unfair God, Bob says so.
Romans 9:21.Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? No says Bob! That would be unjust. Great stuff to show your real colours man.

Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Don't you like the idea that God is Sovereign Bob? I do.

john.

 

Age of Accountability is assumed to be 12 because of Jewish Tradition and Mary and Joseph taking Jesus (and losing him for 3 days) at that age. That's the age Jesus announced, Didn't you know where I'd be? I must be about my Father's business. (LOOSE translation) Luke 2:42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!
John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

Diane,

Of course the Angels had free will. The majority chose God and Satan exercised his free will when he aspired to be god. He does not have free will now. He cannot choose to be a good Angel once again. He operates within the bounds of his nature which is evil and opposed to God.

God created Adam and Eve with free will. Adam and Eve exercised their free will when they followed the advice of Satan. Adam sinned and the curse of his fall has been inherited by every human being except one - Jesus Christ, who is of course the God-Man and inherited his Father's Nature instead of Man's Sinful Nature.

Now man has a problem. He does not have "free will" like the angels had and like Adam and Eve had. He has freedom to choose within the boundaries of his nature. His nature is sinful and he cannot choose on his own to escape that nature.

He needs a Savior. Jesus can free him (save him) from his Sin Nature. When Jesus saves us we are free indeed.

We have much more in common than you might think.

 

Show scripture where God implicitly says He took away man's ability to decide to accept the gift of salvation.

 

Actually Jesus did inherit our corrupt nature. How else could He be tempted?

Temptation presupposes unlawful desires - Jesus was tempted - thus Jesus had unlawful desires but HE CONQUERED them - which is something we as humans could never do.

This allows Jesus to both empathize with us and be our replacement sacrifice.

 

Don't believe I'd want to be on record saying that Jesus possessed a corrupt nature.

Got any scripture to back that up?

 

Show scripture where God implicitly says He took away man's ability to decide to accept the gift of salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]This one is enuf.

Joh 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life.
Joh 6:64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
Joh 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

 

My concordances point back to John 6:44 and the DRAWING of the Holy Spirit. Without the drawing of the Holy Spirit (given to man), no man would surrender and yet some still turn aside/ turn back.

Robertsons says: Their obstinacy and unbelief (verses 41, 42) called out this. Two things are needful to come to Christ, the human will to come and the divine drawing (see John 5:40; Matt. 23:37; Rev. 22:17). God "draws" by the gospel. "It is the power of God unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16). If our will consents, so that we yield to the drawing, we will come to Christ.


Matthew Henry says: As without the soul of man the flesh is of no value, so without the quickening Spirit of God all forms of religion are dead and worthless. He who made this provision for our souls, alone can teach us these things, and draw us unto Christ, that we may live by faith in him. Let us apply to Christ, thankful that it is declared that every one who is willing to come unto him shall be made welcome.

 

As to the question: Does God love Satan? the answer should be obvious considering the ultimate fate of Satan. I disagree with the conclusions of a number of posts regarding Satan so I will present my opinion which I believe I have posted either on this Forum or another.

Where does Satan come from? Only God knows; no one else. No where in Scripture is the origin of Satan and evil made known. However, almost from the beginning of Scripture, Satan and evil are there.

The Old Testament Scriptures are particularly sketchy, almost silent, about the person Satan. The actual name Satan appears only 15 times, 11 of those in the Book of Job. In each case Satan is identified as an adversary [Job 1&2, 1 Chronicles 21:1, Psalm 109:6, and Zechariah 3:1,2]. For example:

1 Chronicles 21:1, KJV And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

The New Testament Scriptures are more informative about the person of Satan but still provide no information about his origin. The word Satan appears 34 times in the New Testament. Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon gives the meaning of the Greek word translated Satan as: adversary [one who opposes another in purpose or act] and is the name given to the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ.

The New Testament Scriptures also use the name devil in reference to the evil one. The word appears 35 times in the New Testament. Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon gives the meaning of the Greek word translated devil as: prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely. Although the word devil does not always refer to Satan in the New Testament it frequently does, as shown in the following passage.

Matthew 4:10,11, KJV Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

1. Jesus Christ tells us that Satan [or the devil] was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies.

John 8:44, KJV Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon gives the meaning of the Greek word translated beginning as 1] beginning, origin; 2] the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader; 3] that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause. The same Greek word is used in John 1:1. We know that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son and have generally understood beginning as used in John 1:1 in that light. Satan, however, can not be considered eternal. The beginning used in reference to Satan must refer to that time when Satan came into existence.

2. The Apostle John tells us that Satan [or the devil] sinned from the beginning.

1 John 3:8, KJV He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The word beginning used above is the English translation of the same Greek word that appears in John 8:44. Thus it appears that Satan has been a sinner since his origin.

3. He is called a deceiver and serpent, this latter possibly a reference to the one who tempted Eve.

Revelation 12:9, KJV And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

4. He is called the prince of this world and prince of the power of the air.

John 12:31, KJV Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Ephesians 2:2, KJV Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

5. Satan’s power is limited by Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches that he has been defeated and bound.

Matthew 12:28,29, KJV But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Hebrews 2:14, KJV Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

1 John 4:3,4, KJV And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

6. The ultimate defeat of Satan is assured. His end is to share the fate of those who follow him.

Revelation 20:10, KJV And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The above passages reveal something about the person of Satan, his limited power, and his ultimate defeat. They tell nothing about his origin. There are those who believe and teach that Satan was an angel who was cast out of Heaven because of his rebellion against God. The basis for this is presumably Isaiah 14:4, 12-16 and Ezekiel 28:12-19. Study of the passage from Isaiah in the context of Chapter 14 will show that the subject of this passage, Lucifer, was the name used for a Babylonian king under judgment of God [Isaiah 14:4]. Isaiah 14:16 reiterates that Lucifer was mere man.

Isaiah 14:4, 12-16, KJV
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Similarly a study of the passage from Ezekiel in the context of Chapter 28 shows that the passage deals with God’s judgment of the king of Tyre.

Ezekiel 28:12-19, KJV
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

It is conceivable that both of these accounts present a type of Satan. However, the creation story of Genesis 1 & 2 teaches that everything the eternal God created was good. Angels are created beings.

What then can be said about Satan and evil?

1. Satan is a personal being, he is not simply an evil force.

2. Satan is not, cannot be eternal.

3. Satan had a beginning and is, therefore, a created being.

4. Satan is the embodiment of evil and is the original source of evil.

5. Satan was a murderer and liar from his beginning.

6. Satan’s doom, and the doom of his followers, is certain.

The Apostle Paul wrote of the mystery of iniquity [2 Thessalonians 2:7] saying: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

It is perhaps best to go no further but leave details of his origin a mystery until Christ's chosen appear with Him in glory .

 

Hello dianetavegia.

And:

Two assumptions but no scripture. Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.


Hello Hardsheller.

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

Heb 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.

john.

 

The onus lies on the shoulders of Calvinists who claim God does NOT love all the same because He created some explicitly for damnation and others, created them arbitrarily for salvation.

God created all of us equally and equally offers the free gift of salvation through the blood sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God, Christ Jesus! Some accept and some decline. The fate of each man is laid on their own refusal to turn from their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their own Messiah.

 

Thanks Johnp - Hardsheller there are otehr verses but I have to get ready to butcher the English language

 

We could play 'what if' all night but the answer is that God is not willing that any should perish; God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave His son, etc.

If God had only created those He foreknew would accept Him, we'd be robots just as the Calvinists would have us believe.

The choice is ours to make. God created us equally and knew which way we'd go but did NOT force us or pre program us one way or the other. To say God pre programmed this pedophile raped a 6 year old boy, a 14 year old boy, who killed the four people and kidnapped the little girl makes God .........

 

John 1:12
Yet to all who received I'm, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

It's not a human decision.

 

Prophesynut, it is a human decision, just not a human act! The human accepts the truth, believes, and God does the rest!