Tom Butler
New Member
The churches I grew up in had pictures of Jesus in Sunday School areas, but not in the auditorium.
And statues--Never. That was Catholic stuff.
And statues--Never. That was Catholic stuff.
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Images said to be Christ;Sacred or Sacrelege?
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PreachTony
Active Member
At a certain level, I would be more concerned with the attitude about the image. Are people worshiping it? That seems to me the driver behind the commandment of not having a graven image, as people would worship statues as gods. The "slippery slope" of the graven image commandment is that you could say it commands us to not even have paintings, or TVs, or photographs...really to have no artwork of any kind.
As for writing in the Bible, ITL, I don't do it, but I know people who do. I've never felt right about it, but I'm not going to try to enforce a personal conviction onto another person. All sorts of books have scribbles, doodles, and notes on the margins. And, unless you believe that every Bible is going to be called away into Heaven, then logically every Bible is going to burn up when the World burns, seeing as the Bible is made up of earthly elements and, according to Peter, the elements are going to "melt with fervent heat." Just a thought.
As for writing in the Bible, ITL, I don't do it, but I know people who do. I've never felt right about it, but I'm not going to try to enforce a personal conviction onto another person. All sorts of books have scribbles, doodles, and notes on the margins. And, unless you believe that every Bible is going to be called away into Heaven, then logically every Bible is going to burn up when the World burns, seeing as the Bible is made up of earthly elements and, according to Peter, the elements are going to "melt with fervent heat." Just a thought.
Agree , I think most like the blue eyed, brown hair on the Jesus painting because of the dislike for the common Jew and their appearance.
With that said Tom, what is your biblical understanding of such Images.
Sacred or Sacrilege?
As was mentioned in an earlier comment, the image give the worshiper a thought (mind image)to think of when worshiping. By this can one separate the mental image of "Jesus" during worship or is it ingrained in us.
I say the percentage would be nearly 90 for those that when they hear the name Jesus, imagine the face of the blue eyed one from most of the pictures.
Again, I personally, can't let the "Mindset" of the artist be a concern. What if in a genuine heart a artist drew a picture of a less handsome "Jesus" and it was hung in the church beside the current one. With that said, I know of several churches mostly attended by Black worshipers that have the "white" "Jesus" with "black" Jesus.
Based on my best understanding, ITL and PT believe that the picture is irrelevant but the "intention" or "heart" of the Artist is the only concern.
I think from this that the current images of the modern Jesus is acceptable as long as it not affiliated with action deemed "normal man stuff" such as the blue eyed long haired Jesus drinking a Budweiser or shooting an Ak-47 or eating pizza with a bunch of friends etc..
Would that be correct?
Would it be fair to say, then, it would become sacrilegious? If only holding lambs and knocking on doors and sitting with children type stuff it's ok?
I think from this that the current images of the modern Jesus is acceptable as long as it not affiliated with action deemed "normal man stuff" such as the blue eyed long haired Jesus drinking a Budweiser or shooting an Ak-47 or eating pizza with a bunch of friends etc..
Would that be correct?
Would it be fair to say, then, it would become sacrilegious? If only holding lambs and knocking on doors and sitting with children type stuff it's ok?
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
This is Jesus, painted by a then 8yr old Akiane Kramarik and confirmed by 4yr old Colton Burpo.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/65159034@N03/galleries/72157627062549265
https://www.flickr.com/photos/65159034@N03/galleries/72157627062549265
PreachTony
Active Member
I've always loved the debate about "was Jesus black or white?" It's so silly. The Bible states that He had no beauty that any would behold Him. To me, that means he didn't stand out the way someone like King Saul did. He was just a part of the crowd, from an earthly perspective.
If He did appear much as our Jews of the time, then Jesus most likely had a more olive-toned skin, and probably had coarse, black or dark brown hair, though He spent much time outside, so His hair could be bleached to a lighter color, like chesnut. This hair would likely not have been long, as that could interfere with working as a carpenter (as it is assumed He did prior to beginning the ministry). Also, Paul wrote that it was considered a shame for a man to have long hair, even if it was not worth being contentious about. His eyes were most likely darker in color, like brown. He probably wasn't very tall, either. These are just historical truths of first century Jewish males.
The images you see of this blonde, blue-eyed, tall and lanky Jesus just don't fit historical record.
PreachTony
Active Member
T Alan, what is the difference between a painting of Jesus and someone imagining what Jesus looks like? We'll never get it right, because we've never seen Jesus in the flesh. When we read the Bible, we imagine what the scenes would've looked like. Is that wrong?
If someone is depicting Jesus committing sins, then it is wrong. If someone depicts Jesus preaching the Sermon on the Mount, would you consider that wrong?
I heard Dr. John MacArthur preach a message somewhat along the lines of "What must the Son of God looked like"----he told of most of the world's images created in the minds of men from generation to generation----and man's mind most always conjure up the same type of image----from generation to generation
But MacArthur seems to believe(and I agree with MacArthur) that the book of Isaiah paints a different picture---not of Jesus looking "swave & savaay" but more along the lines of the image painted of the Hunchback of Notre Dame!!! A Jew that broadcasted a repulsive image-----HE HATH NO FORM NOR COMELINESS THAT WE SHOULD BE ATTRACTED TO HIM----rather just the opposite!
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
One only has to view a portrait of Leonardo Da Vinci, the painter of the last supper to see a strong resemblance of Da Vinci and the blue eyed, long haired Jesus. Da Vinci was rumored to be gay and had been a model for portraits himself. He wore his hair long probably trying to look feminine. I would assume the pictures of Jesus hanging on the living room walls today are copied from Da Vinci's last supper.
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PT, If you had never saw a rendering(false) of Christ' image no mental image would come to mind. Just like with God the Father, When you imagine Him do you have a mental picture? I don't. (I would like you to imagine just how difficult it was to restrain from responding with "One is on a canvas or similar item and one is done with the mind". See I couldn't restrain after all.)
Apples and oranges, IMHPO. One is of places, the other is of THE LORD OF ALL CREATION which has said and taught us not to try to do.
Is having a couple cans O' Budweiser, eating pizza with friends wearing a Hawks cap backwards sin?
Wrong, Yes, Indeed, at least in my legalistic, Puritan type mind. Because it "Limits" Jesus to our thoughts. It allows us to put Him in the box that we like (black or white Jesus). It make images in books and even churches object of our worship because it's supposed to be Him. No one knows His face to offer one, it's bad business for already stated reasons. IMPO
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PreachTony
Active Member
Where, exactly, did the Lord say that we shouldn't try to picture in our mind what His physical form looked like? we actually do get a couple of description in the Bible, albeit rather limited in scope and vague. Like I said, the Bible shows that Jesus was able to blend into a crowd to get away. His appearance was common enough that Judas had to perform some sign for the Romans in order that they know who to arrest (according to some reports :smilewinkgrin
. He had no physical beauty that set Him apart from anyone else, so far as physical nature is concerned. A simply study of history will give you an approximate image of a first century Jewish male's physical appearance.Or are you saying that, if we have particularly active imaginations and actually like to picture in our minds the things we are reading about, that we should stop our imaginations, or pray for duller minds, so that we don't erroneously envisage Jesus in a way that isn't 100% accurate to His physical form? Here's the things about that: think about your favorite person on the whole planet. Describe that person to someone else. Chances are very high that you won't describe them 100% correctly, nor will they envision that person the way you remember them, based off your description.
Depends...are you drinking to get drunk? :smilewinkgrin: Also, are we talking the Atlanta Hawks or the Chicago Blackhawks? Or the Seattle Seahawks?
I doubt very seriously I would be able to stop imagining the scenes in my head, though I can assure you that I'm not worshiping my imagination.
Do not try to envision what Jesus looks like smacks of legalism.
Gib
Active Member
I must be in the 10%. I've never imagined Jesus' face during worship, during breakfast on my toast, on my chicken or in my macaroni and cheese. I have heard others have seen him on banana peels, cheetos, bagels, in the clouds, in ice cream, and various other places. I'm going to have to pay more attention next time I have cheerios.
Well, Big Dave (I'm dyslexic), the "Jesus" those people see in their cereal (I'm not giving free ad space) are most likely seeing the blond hair flowing in the wind, bearded, Straight nosed, curt chinned, Jesus that is the common renderings in most churches that white folk attend. (just the opposite for the black citizens)
(One of the good times to be in the 10 percent).
No, specific place but an over arching thought drawn from the absence of such descriptions.
we actually do get a couple of description in the Bible, albeit rather limited in scope and vague.
I believe Jesus disappeared and walked as Spirit.
Yeos!!
He had no physical beauty that set Him apart from anyone else, so far as physical nature is concerned. A simply study of history will give you an approximate image of a first century Jewish male's physical appearance.
NOPe, not even close to what's in my mind or coming from my diaphragm.
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Your scriptural proof of this. Wait, I bet this is it:
No, specific place but an over arching thought drawn from the absence of such descriptions.
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
God.
God.
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