Immersion

[VDMA]

First, I do not have a “low view of baptism”. I believe it to be very important, just not salvific..

As far as it being symbolic, Paul states that those who are baptized are baptized into Christ death.

Do you believe that statement to be literal or symbolic?

My focus in salvation is always on what God does in the person’s life. Not what I do and certainly not what another fallen human being (I.e. a priest) does or says. Salvation is a work of God from start to finish.

The critical error of Catholicism is they re-establish a priesthood that was abolished by Christ Himself. Where scripture says there is only one mediator between God and man (Jesus Christ) Catholics re-instituted a hierarchy of priests, as well as dead saints and angels, that are mediators between God and man, usurping the Office of Great High Priest from Jesus.

Now that our talking points have been articulated, back to the OP.

Is there any place in scripture where baptism means anything other than immersion in water. I’m not interested in your opinion, only what scripture says.

peace to you

This is my last reply to this post. This has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The whole purpose is to be faithful to God‘s word … not as un-Catholic as possible. The claim that baptism is merely a symbolic ritual, is simply not taught in scripture. Faith is what saves and faith is received by word and sacrament (and God’s word is attached to the sacraments). Baptism unites us to Christ (Rom 6:3-5) we do not see baptism and faith as being opposed to one another, just like we don’t see the word of God and faith as being opposed to one another. God’s word is connected to Holy baptism “by the washing of water with the word” (Eph 5:26), in baptism God makes promises and we believe them and we cling to them by faith.

We are baptized into Christ through the life giving waters of holy baptism.

1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Does Holy baptism save? According to sacred scripture baptism now saves you. So the answer to that question is a obvious yes. All the baptismal passages talk about the cleansing, washing, renewal, rebirth, regeneration, forgiveness, receiveing…It’s all gift talk…Holy baptism is a gift that we receive promises and those promises are received by faith. It is an objective means of grace.

1. Jesus said that his church would stand and the gates of hell would not prevail again it (Matthew 16:18)
2. The Bible says the church is the pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15)
3. The entire church throughout history believed in baptismal regeneration and the only ones to deny baptismal efficacy were the anabaptists of the reformation who were largely heterodox or even Heretical (anti-Trinitarian) in their doctrines. All the church fathers (Irenaeus, who was discipled by Polycarp who was discipled by Apostle John) affirmed it. Every council that spoke of baptism affirmed it, and, what's more, a straightforward reading of the baptism passages also teaches baptismal regeneration.

So either Christ failed to keep his promise, or your view is not apostolic.

May God’s grace and peace be with you.

 

[canadyjd]

This is my last reply to this post. This has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The whole purpose is to be faithful to God‘s word … not as un-Catholic as possible. The claim that baptism is merely a symbolic ritual, is simply not taught in scripture. Faith is what saves and faith is received by word and sacrament (and God’s word is attached to the sacraments). Baptism unites us to Christ (Rom 6:3-5) we do not see baptism and faith as being opposed to one another, just like we don’t see the word of God and faith as being opposed to one another. God’s word is connected to Holy baptism “by the washing of water with the word” (Eph 5:26), in baptism God makes promises and we believe them and we cling to them by faith.

We are baptized into Christ through the life giving waters of holy baptism.

1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Does Holy baptism save? According to sacred scripture baptism now saves you. So the answer to that question is a obvious yes. All the baptismal passages talk about the cleansing, washing, renewal, rebirth, regeneration, forgiveness, receiveing…It’s all gift talk…Holy baptism is a gift that we receive promises and those promises are received by faith. It is an objective means of grace.

1. Jesus said that his church would stand and the gates of hell would not prevail again it (Matthew 16:18)
2. The Bible says the church is the pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15)
3. The entire church throughout history believed in baptismal regeneration and the only ones to deny baptismal efficacy were the anabaptists of the reformation who were largely heterodox or even Heretical (anti-Trinitarian) in their doctrines. All the church fathers (Irenaeus, who was discipled by Polycarp who was discipled by Apostle John) affirmed it. Every council that spoke of baptism affirmed it, and, what's more, a straightforward reading of the baptism passages also teaches baptismal regeneration.

So either Christ failed to keep his promise, or your view is not apostolic.

May God’s grace and peace be with you.

And so we disagree. You have articulated your position well and supported it with scripture and I appreciate that. Now, back to the OP.

Do you have any passages of scripture where “baptizmo” means anything other than immersion into water. Not your opinion, but what is actually stated in scripture

peace to you

 

[Salty]

I was talking to a Greek lady one day (taught her son how to drive.)
Since she was Greek Orthodox - I asked if there churched immersed babies.
She said yes - I asked why - she told me that is what the Greek word means -
IMMERSION!

And that's why we use immersion* -for the ordinance* of baptism.
as Immersion is a symbolism for the Death, burial and Resurrection of Christ.

* Baptism is an ordinance as it has no saving power

 

[VDMA]

Last post for real. The Orthodox Church considers, sprinkling and pouring valid* (your answer might very with Orthodox)… they do not consider full immersion absolutely necessary for a baptism to be valid. For example if Catholic became Orthodox, they would not have to be rebaptized. The normal mode of admission of holy baptism in the Orthodox Church is full immersion x3. Also, they would not consider a Baptist baptisms valid unless there were immersed three times.

 

[canadyjd]

View attachment 6887 Last post for real. The Orthodox Church considers, sprinkling and pouring valid* (your answer might very with Orthodox)… they do not consider full immersion absolutely necessary for a baptism to be valid. For example if Catholic became Orthodox, they would not have to be rebaptized. The normal mode of admission of holy baptism in the Orthodox Church is full immersion x3. Also, they would not consider a Baptist baptisms valid unless there were immersed three times.

It is simply untrue that Baptists believe baptism “means nothing”. They don’t believe it is necessary for salvation.

The question of the OP is what does the word baptism mean? In 1st century Kone Greek it means to immerse in water. That definition may have evolved to mean “apply water: by sprinkling, pouring or immersing”; but it means immerse in water when used in scripture.

peace to you

 

[VDMA]

Ironically Baptist have a very low view of baptism. “It is just like a webbing ring” … “it is merely a symbol” (some try to make is more than a symbol but they still don’t see it as a means of grace)… “it is not salvic” … “baptism is not a means of grace” … “baptism is not necessary” … How about re-baptisms … which is sacrilegious (a sin) and you see it commonly in Baptist churches … not to mention many (not all) make a spectacle show out of Holy baptism with production style projector screens …etc. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglican, Presbyterians all have a much higher view of baptism then Baptist.

On a side note there is no “once saved always saved” so if you despise our baptism … you are going to hell.

Baptist: Can any of the Church Fathers be pastors at your church? Answer: no

 

[Squire Robertsson]

On that note, this thread is closed.