Immigration

[Sapper Woody]

I wanted this as more of a discussion rather than a debate, but this doesn't fit in with any of the discussion forums. So I am putting it here.

Here are some quotes I recently discovered in a book concerning immigration (both legal and illegal):
"These people are not Americans. They are the very scum and offal of [their homeland]."
"There should be a law to keep all the [race] from coming in and taking the bread out of the mouths of honest people."
(Concerning the living habits of these immigrants, who often live several families to a household) "[They] herd together like animals and live like beasts."

What's interesting about these quotes is that you can hear their like all over the country. But these quotes I found in a history textbook, from the 1890s. Mostly they were talking about immigrants from Poland and Italy.

The first quote is actually, "These people are not Americans. They are the very scum and offal of Europe."
The second, "There should be a law to keep all Italians from coming in and taking the bread out of the mouths of honest people."
The third is a quote concerning all immigrants.

Now, I am all for legal immigration, and all against illegal immigration. But today it seems as if some people (not necessarily on this board) throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have heard comments similar to those from the 1890s concerning Mexicans. Here's one we've all heard, "We should just completely close down the border."

This post is not a rebuke, but an admonishment to remember that while we do need to fight illegal immigration, we must not let illegal immigration cloud our vision towards legal immigration. It's a fine line to walk. It's easy to let righteous indignation turn to unrighteous.

 

[Revmitchell]

Has there been any talk in any circles about inhibiting legal immigration? I am unaware of it if it is.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Has there been any talk in any circles about inhibiting legal immigration? I am unaware of it if it is.

Rev, not so much on the board that I am aware of. But I have heard it from people, both Christian and non-Christian. To be clear, the Christians were discussing it as an extreme option for a dire circumstance, but it was discussed as an option. The non-Christians were discussing it as a fed-up-with-the-entire-country response. "Just keep them all out."

I know that in my heart I have wondered about the same thing. Should we just keep them all out to stop illegal immigration? But, in my mind, I see this as the same stance as the anti-gun crowd. "Make it illegal so the illegals can't do it." If we close the borders to legal immigration, all we're left with is illegal immigration.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev, not so much on the board that I am aware of. But I have heard it from people, both Christian and non-Christian. To be clear, the Christians were discussing it as an extreme option for a dire circumstance, but it was discussed as an option. The non-Christians were discussing it as a fed-up-with-the-entire-country response. "Just keep them all out."

I know that in my heart I have wondered about the same thing. Should we just keep them all out to stop illegal immigration? But, in my mind, I see this as the same stance as the anti-gun crowd. "Make it illegal so the illegals can't do it." If we close the borders to legal immigration, all we're left with is illegal immigration.

I believe those coming from lawless countries like Mexico should receive higher scrutiny. I also believe no one from terrorist sponsoring countries should be allowed in.

I know of no one talking about stopping all immigration. The idea is new to me. Nor would I support it.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I wanted this as more of a discussion rather than a debate, but this doesn't fit in with any of the discussion forums. So I am putting it here.

Here are some quotes I recently discovered in a book concerning immigration (both legal and illegal):
"These people are not Americans. They are the very scum and offal of [their homeland]."
"There should be a law to keep all the [race] from coming in and taking the bread out of the mouths of honest people."
(Concerning the living habits of these immigrants, who often live several families to a household) "[They] herd together like animals and live like beasts."

What's interesting about these quotes is that you can hear their like all over the country. But these quotes I found in a history textbook, from the 1890s. Mostly they were talking about immigrants from Poland and Italy.

The first quote is actually, "These people are not Americans. They are the very scum and offal of Europe."
The second, "There should be a law to keep all Italians from coming in and taking the bread out of the mouths of honest people."
The third is a quote concerning all immigrants.

Now, I am all for legal immigration, and all against illegal immigration. But today it seems as if some people (not necessarily on this board) throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have heard comments similar to those from the 1890s concerning Mexicans. Here's one we've all heard, "We should just completely close down the border."

This post is not a rebuke, but an admonishment to remember that while we do need to fight illegal immigration, we must not let illegal immigration cloud our vision towards legal immigration. It's a fine line to walk. It's easy to let righteous indignation turn to unrighteous.

The difference is that (a) those immigrants came here legally, learned English, and assimilated, oftentimes, to the point of changing their names to sound more "American".

They came here to be Americans. The border criminals and the Muslims don't come here to be Americans, but to be expats living in America.

Huge difference. One builds a nation. The other destroys it.

Seal the border, round up the border criminals, stick them in a plane, and drop them over China (parachutes optional). Let them go destroy some other country.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Has there been any talk in any circles about inhibiting legal immigration? I am unaware of it if it is.

I don't like stopping legal immigration, assuming the immigrants speak the language, plan to assimilate, and have some necessary skill to contribute and support themselves. But, unfortunately, the border criminals have taken up space and resources we would have otherwise had for the legal immigrants.

So, until we get rid of the border criminals and seal our borders, there should be a moratorium with no immigration.

If people don't like it, then just explain that it's the fault of the border criminals.

It's time to hang out the "No Vacancy" sign.

I agree with you about not accepting immigrants from Muslim countries, though.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am probably wrong but I think that the borders have been totally closed from time to time in the past. Having lived in El Paso and seen many, many people wade the Rio Grande (it is very shallow), I have always thought that the border should be closed to illegal immigration.

As for any guilt about what someone said about Italians a hundred years ago, I have none because I did not say that.

I think that would should ask Cuba why their hero Che said that Mexicans were a bunch of illiterate Indians and that blacks maintained their racial purity because they didn't like to take baths.

"Mexicans are a band of illiterate Indians". —Che Guevara, in Mexico.

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have maintained their racial purity thanks to their lack of an affinity with bathing,... (Che)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

JDF, I believe it took a generation or two of even more for these immigrants to be considered part of the "American" mainstream. Fiorello LaGuardia campaigned for Congress and Mayor of New York City in English, Italian, and Yiddish. Then there were the various pre-WW1 German social clubs.

The difference is that (a) those immigrants came here legally, learned English, and assimilated, oftentimes, to the point of changing their names to sound more "American".

They came here to be Americans. The border criminals and the Muslims don't come here to be Americans, but to be expats living in America.

Huge difference. One builds a nation. The other destroys it.

Seal the border, round up the border criminals, stick them in a plane, and drop them over China (parachutes optional). Let them go destroy some other country.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The difference is that (a) those immigrants came here legally, learned English, and assimilated, oftentimes, to the point of changing their names to sound more "American".

I understand this, and this is basically my point. Some come here to be American, but we (as a country) sometimes overlook this in our zeal to shut out illegals.

The border criminals and the Muslims don't come here to be Americans, but to be expats living in America.

Do you realize what an un-American statement this was, grouping ALL Muslims together? There are Muslims who share a class with me. They are all American. They speak English, enjoy our culture, and dress like us. The only difference is their religion.

I agree with you about not accepting immigrants from Muslim countries, though.

No one said this. What was said was:

I also believe no one from terrorist sponsoring countries should be allowed in.

This is not the same thing. Not at all.

As for any guilt about what someone said about Italians a hundred years ago, I have none because I did not say that.

CMG, it was not my intent to guilt anyone. Simply a caution lest we develop that same attitude.

 

[Reformed]

I also believe no one from terrorist sponsoring countries should be allowed in..

What about those fleeing those countries because they disagree with their current regime? Should we say "no" without exception?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Sapper, I agree with your sentiments. Since Plymouth Rock and Jamestown, there has been an animus towards immigrants. The group(s) focused on have changed over the years. But the sentiment has existed. In the early days, the focus was on non-members of a given colony's established church. In the mid-1800s, the Roman Catholic Irish were the bad immigrants. In the West, the Chinese bore the brunt well into the 20th century with the Chinese Exclusion Act and California's land ownership laws growing out of it. From the 1890s until the 1940s, Italians and Eastern European Jews were viewed suspicion. Germans because they were not "dry" were another bad group. Prohibition in part was a reaction to the beer drinking Germans, the wine drinking Italians, and the whiskey drinking Irish.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

JDF, I believe it took a generation or two of even more for these immigrants to be considered part of the "American" mainstream.

I agree. But the fact remains that it's both foolish and factually wrong to compare the current border criminals with those immigrants.

Do you realize what an un-American statement this was, grouping ALL Muslims together? There are Muslims who share a class with me. They are all American. They speak English, enjoy our culture, and dress like us. The only difference is their religion.

The same was said about the 9/11 hijackers.

That you're in a class with some "Muslims" doesn't make my statement Un-American or wrong.

 

[carpro]

Illegal immigration is the main focus of any animus at the present time. Even legal immigrants don't like it.

 

[carpro]

Do you realize what an un-American statement this was, grouping ALL Muslims together? There are Muslims who share a class with me. They are all American. They speak English, enjoy our culture, and dress like us. The only difference is their religion.

One must bear in mind that islam is not a religion, but a political system that uses religion to control the masses.

Islam is simply not compatible with the governance of a republic. Never has been. Never will be. Muslim immigrants will always push for exceptions and even a separate system. It's happening right here right now. It's even further along in some countries in Europe.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

One must bear in mind that islam is not a religion, but a political system that uses religion to control the masses.

Islam is simply not compatible with the governance of a republic. Never has been. Never will be. Muslim immigrants will always push for exceptions and even a separate system. It's happening right here right now. It's even further along in some countries in Europe.

I agree.

Anybody who believes this influx of Muslims isn't going to bite us in the [rear] is a fool.

 

[righteousdude2]

This post is not a rebuke, but an admonishment to remember that while we do need to fight illegal immigration, we must not let illegal immigration cloud our vision towards legal immigration. It's a fine line to walk. It's easy to let righteous indignation turn to unrighteous.

Brother, I have never been against LEGAL immigration. Without it, I my still live in Germany! My grandparents, both sides, were children of immigrants (three from Germany, one from Italy) and they did it legally. plus, AND THIS IS A BIG PLUS, they assimilated to the American culture. In fact, my dad and grandparents who spoke fluent German, refused to teach me German let alone even speak it! They'd say, when I asked, this is America, we speak English!

I am however against those who flow freely across our border, and then demand that America stop deporting them, and grant them amnesty! Those people are the bane of society, and it is these folks, as nice as they may be, that need to leave and come back legally! :tonofbricks:

 

[Sapper Woody]

I agree. But the fact remains that it's both foolish and factually wrong to compare the current border criminals with those immigrants.

And no one is doing so. I was simply warning that in our zeal to secure the borders against illegal immigration, it's easy to mark an entire country of people as criminals, scum of the earth, etc.

The same was said about the 9/11 hijackers.

That you're in a class with some "Muslims" doesn't make my statement Un-American or wrong.

No, what makes your statement un-American and wrong is that you took an entire group of people, and lumped them together.

Islam is simply not compatible with the governance of a republic. Never has been. Never will be. Muslim immigrants will always push for exceptions and even a separate system. It's happening right here right now. It's even further along in some countries in Europe.

And that is different from Baptist missionaries how? Say a Baptist missionary goes to a tribe in Africa that allows multiple wives. He's going to try to convert them, and eventually abolish that practice, although it's their cultural and political system. If a missionary goes to a land that has a law that disagrees with him, he's going to try to get an exception from the policy. If I, myself, were to go live somewhere that had rules and regulations that violated my conscience, I'd ask for an exception. Hopefully 100% of us on the board would do the same. It's no different.

I'm not saying that Islam is a good thing; far from it. It's sending millions of people to Hell. But show me where their actual religion believes what the extremists believe. I've heard people say all kinds of things that Muslims believe, but no one so far has backed their statements up.

"They must enslave the infidel!" First, show me in context where it says that, then I'll point out that according to the Quran Christians and Jews are brothers, not infidels.

Now, as far as the incursion of Muslims, I will agree that it is a bad thing. Any incursion of any false religion en mass is a bad thing. But I've read the Quran and had many talks with non-extreme Muslims. To lump them all in as evil is not right.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

And no one is doing so.

Actually, that's exactly what you're doing.

I was simply warning that in our zeal to secure the borders against illegal immigration, it's easy to mark an entire country of people as criminals, scum of the earth, etc.

Yep. And when they're criminals and scum of the Earth, it's even easier.

No, what makes your statement un-American and wrong is that you took an entire group of people, and lumped them together.

You still haven't explained how that's supposed to be "Un-American"?

"They must enslave the infidel!" First, show me in context where it says that, then I'll point out that according to the Quran Christians and Jews are brothers, not infidels.

Why not put your money where your mouth is and show us where the Quran says Christians and Jews are "brothers" of Muslims?

 

[Crabtownboy]

And no one is doing so. I was simply warning that in our zeal to secure the borders against illegal immigration, it's easy to mark an entire country of people as criminals, scum of the earth, etc.

Yes, and the Great Wall of China was much more effective at keeping people of China in and not all that effective at keeping unwanted people out. One of the lessons of history.

No, what makes your statement un-American and wrong is that you took an entire group of people, and lumped them together.

And that is different from Baptist missionaries how? Say a Baptist missionary goes to a tribe in Africa that allows multiple wives. He's going to try to convert them, and eventually abolish that practice, although it's their cultural and political system. If a missionary goes to a land that has a law that disagrees with him, he's going to try to get an exception from the policy. If I, myself, were to go live somewhere that had rules and regulations that violated my conscience, I'd ask for an exception. Hopefully 100% of us on the board would do the same. It's no different.

I'm not saying that Islam is a good thing; far from it. It's sending millions of people to Hell. But show me where their actual religion believes what the extremists believe. I've heard people say all kinds of things that Muslims believe, but no one so far has backed their statements up.

"They must enslave the infidel!" First, show me in context where it says that, then I'll point out that according to the Quran Christians and Jews are brothers, not infidels.

Now, as far as the incursion of Muslims, I will agree that it is a bad thing. Any incursion of any false religion en mass is a bad thing. But I've read the Quran and had many talks with non-extreme Muslims. To lump them all in as evil is not right.

You are correct.

 

[church mouse guy]

Venezuela, with ties to Iran, has promised to accept 20,000 Syrians into their collapsing country. Presumably, they will become part of the repressive force used to drive Colombians out of Venezuela and repress the starving Venezuelan people even more. For example, Leopoldo Lopez, opposition candidate for president, recently got 14.5 years in prison from a kangaroo court. And Venzuelan Air Force planes are openly invading Colombian air space.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/08/us-europe-migrants-venezuela-idUSKCN0R81HL20150908

I don't understand how you can accuse the USA of human rights abuse or some sort of thought crimes when thousands of Americans wear T-shirts with Che's picture, and I have quoted to you that Che looked down his nose at Mexicans and openly disliked blacks, as do the Castros. Yet these collapsed Latin American states have use for Syrians.

My point is that the USA is not guilty of hate crimes but Cuba and Venezuela and others are.