RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
And just to be clear, that passage does not say that that disciple would die. It only says that Jesus didn’t say one way or another.
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Implications of the Garden
- Thread starter JonC
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RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Not sure if I have, at least in those specific terms, not deeply anyway, but I can see the point.
However, I posted a clarification of my post here.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
The sheer entertainment of it of course!What is it that keeps you coming back?
I disagree.
You keep going back to geographical location.
You said that IF it were doctrinally important then the text of Scripture would have specified.
I agree.
The exact geographical location is not important.
BUT the text of Scripture points out that this location was somewhere outside of the Garden. God says this three times. So according to your logic that must be important because the text of Scripture tells us repeatedly.
We have no right to dismiss Scripture we find unimportant. We actually have no right to say any of God's words are unimportant.
Rather than dismissing Scripture we should ask why it is that God told us three times in the Bible that Adam was created outside of the Garden. How does this work into the biblical narrative.
If you do not know that is fine, but that does not mean it is unimportant. God wouldn't have revealed to us in His Word those details I'd they didn't matter.
I'm going to move on from the first point with the assumption, even though some disagree, that all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching.
So God tells us that He created everything, to include man, and then planted a Garden in Eden. God put Adam in this Garden.
What does this tell us about man in relation to God?
What is the significance of the Garden?
So God tells us that He created everything, to include man, and then planted a Garden in Eden. God put Adam in this Garden.
What does this tell us about man in relation to God?
What is the significance of the Garden?
Ok....let's look at this from a common ANE understanding of temples.
What were temples in this tradition? Ultimately these were placed where people wanted their god to inhabit and dwell among them.
These were built around water (springs, rivers, sometimes water diverted to the temple). For example in Mesopotamian and Egyptian traditions the waters of abzu and Nun are associated respectively with the Tigris/Euphrates and Nile rivers. These rivers were viewed as the water of life.
Ziggurats were built and good offered at the top in order to entice the god to come down and reside with men, making their city great.
What were temples in this tradition? Ultimately these were placed where people wanted their god to inhabit and dwell among them.
These were built around water (springs, rivers, sometimes water diverted to the temple). For example in Mesopotamian and Egyptian traditions the waters of abzu and Nun are associated respectively with the Tigris/Euphrates and Nile rivers. These rivers were viewed as the water of life.
Ziggurats were built and good offered at the top in order to entice the god to come down and reside with men, making their city great.
Now consider what we are told of the Garden.
God created Adam. God, after creating the Earth, animals, plants, and Adam (before creating Eve....so this would be on the sixth day) planted a Garden in the East of Eden.
God then put man in this Garden and dwelt with him in a unique and intimate way.
Again, what does this say about Adam?
What does this say about the Garden?
God created Adam. God, after creating the Earth, animals, plants, and Adam (before creating Eve....so this would be on the sixth day) planted a Garden in the East of Eden.
God then put man in this Garden and dwelt with him in a unique and intimate way.
Again, what does this say about Adam?
What does this say about the Garden?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Suggesting that some in this thread disagree with the truth that “all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching” sounds like a base and baseless accusation. Show where someone has said they disagree with that truth stated by Paul to Timothy.
A New Name for an Old Fallacy: "Assailment-by-Entailment"
Arguing Assailment-by-Entailment
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
And I agree wholeheartedly with that.
Suggesting that I’m saying some of God’s words are unimportant would be an outrageous falsehood. I don’t believe such a thing and would never say such a thing.
Suggesting that I’m “dismissing Scripture” would be an outrageous falsehood. I’ve never said that any scripture should be dismissed as unimportant.
A New Name for an Old Fallacy: "Assailment-by-Entailment"
Arguing Assailment-by-Entailment
Some do.
Three times in God's Word it is presented that Adam was created outside of the Garden. God created Adam and placed him in the Garden. Then God expelled Adam from the Garden to till the ground from which he was created.
What I am saying is that it is time to end any attempt of questioning whether it is true that Adam was created outside of the Garden and move on to discussing implications.
Why do you believe that detail (Adam being created outside the Garden) was important enough to be included in the Bible?
What does this tell us about the Garden and about man?
Same here. Has my attention now.
...it's what makes the BB interesting....
You want interesting how about this question... Was Jesus crucified in the same garden that Adam and Eve sinned in?... Brother Glen
Btw... Here's a little tidbit you might be interested in under Golgotha's Hill is a place called, The Chapel Of Adam where supposedly his bones are interred... I'm only saying
I never said that you dismiss Scripture as unimportant.
To the contrary, in fact.
I said that you posted that things NOT in the Bible are not things upon which we build doctrine
I AGREED WITH YOU.
My comment is that since God indicated three times in his Word that Adam was created outside of the Garden then we should consider that important because God said it.
I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing.
You misunderstood my post.
I supposed from the start that you believe everything Scripture states about Adam and the Garden are important and suitable for doctrine. This includes Adam being created from ground, God planting a Garden and watering it from the rivers, the Tree of Life, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, God taking man from where he was and placing Adam in the Garden, Adam transgressing God's command, becoming "like God knowing good xnd evil", and Adam being returned to till the soil from whence he came.
I was agreeing with you - it is all important.
My question is that since God tells us Adam was created outside of the Garden, since we are told this three times in Genesis, and since you indicate by your post that we build doctrine on what is written in the Bible - what are the implications of that revelation?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Scripture does not say that God first made man and only afterward planted the garden in Eden. Again, the chapter cannot be held to a strictly chronological structure. This has already been pointed out in general.
Let's look at Scripture:
Genesis 2:7–8 Then the Lord God formed man ... The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
Did God plant a Garden towards the East, in Eden, and there place the man whom He had formed?
You say "no", that God did not place man whom He had formed in the Garden.
Genesis 2:15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
Did God take Adam and put him into the Garden?
You say "no", Adam could have been created in the Garden.
Genesis 3:22–24 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
Did God send Adam out from the Garden to cultivate the ground from which he was taken?
You again say "no", that God may have created Adam in the Garden and was cast out.
Your comments cannot be reconciled with God's Word.
If you can so easily dismiss three times Scripture specifically presents Adam as being created outside of the Garden then what other Scripture do you readily dismiss?
I am sure you see the problem with affirming those passages insofar as your theology goes. That is the only reason for you to so strongly deny those verses.
BUT what I am saying is that this thread is moving past questioning whether those verses are right and instead will assume they are.
Thread closed at request of OP.
I am closing this thread because it is not going past deciding if God placed man whom He created in the Garden.
Instead of being stuck on this point I am going to start two new threads -
One asking if God created man in the Garden or if God placed man who was already created in the Garden (probably a poll thread).
The other discussing implications supposing Adam was created outside the Garden. (Discussion begins with that presupposition).
I am closing this thread because it is not going past deciding if God placed man whom He created in the Garden.
Instead of being stuck on this point I am going to start two new threads -
One asking if God created man in the Garden or if God placed man who was already created in the Garden (probably a poll thread).
The other discussing implications supposing Adam was created outside the Garden. (Discussion begins with that presupposition).
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