Featured Impossible to Keep

As I said -- "One of the things most notable about the Messianic Jewish congregations I have visited during their Saturday morning Sabbath services - is that they all claim to have a lot of interest among former Seventh-day Adventists who go there because the Messianic groups have the same acceptance of the 4th commandment"

This is not only what I observed - it is was they took hours to explain to me.

Not according to the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

Not according to the NT - "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.

Not according to Confessions of Sunday keeping groups like the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith

Not according to Sunday keeping sources like R.C. Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody.

And not according to the Messianic Jewish Congregations I have visited.

inconvenient details - but all true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The "objective unbiased" reader will "notice" that things we are supposed to "do" to honor the 4th commandment. "HOW to KEEP" the Sabbath Holy.

1. Rest - no daily business/work
2. Gather for worship.

It does not get any easier than this to "see" it.

The more you call God's Word meaningless as it speaks to what we are supposed to do on the Sabbath - the more you reveal the spirit behind your position.

So you reject all of scripture on this subject except for your tiny focus on "picking up sticks" Which I have said before on this thread - I am not picking up sticks on Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

 

We should all refuse to debate SDA church members. They are a cult that is farther out than the RCC. They define their message and warp verses to match their warped message. We might as well allow Hindus and Buddhists on the board.

 

In all their explaining, did they tell you why these folks decided to reject Adventism?

 

There were former Adventists there - but I was talking to the Pastor\Rabbi -- He did not indicate that he was a former Adventist only that his congregation and a number of others had a number of former Seventh-day Adventists.

I did not ask if they had any former Seventh-day Baptists.

In any case the Seventh-day Adventist group is now larger than the Messianic Jewish congregations and the Southern Baptists - so I am not sure how much the Messianic Jewish program is hurting our growth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

There is "a reason" that groups like the Southern Baptists are shrinking. I was not sure what it was - until I began following SN's solutions to various Bible texts that appear to refute some popular beliefs.

I am starting to figure it out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The more you claim scripture that speaks to how we are to keep the Sabbath is "meaningless" the more you weakend your opposition to the 4th Commandment.

Notice -- there are a number of groups - both Sunday Keeping and Sabbath keeping that affirm ALL TEN of the TEN commandments - and do not go to your extremes in their opposition to them.

[FONT=&quot]Ex 20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.



Isaiah 58
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,

Isaiah 56

For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off. 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—


Is 66
“And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.


NKJV

And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.


Lev 23
23 The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.


[/FONT]I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor many of the Messianic Jewish groups, nor R.C Sproul.

=========================

I keep pointing out that last paragraph above -

========================

[FONT=&quot]

There was no requirement for Lot to make Sodom keep Sabbath.

There was no requirement for Israel to make Babylon keep Sabbath while they were captive.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith - freely admits to the limits between the Civil laws of the theocracy and the MORAL law of the Ten Commandments.

Though to your credit - some of the Pharisees in Christ day tried your stunt on Christ - with the woman caught in adultery - while they were under Roman occupation.

[/FONT]

Not according to your own Baptist Confession of Faith.

As you "make stuff up" you are not only going against the Bible details - but even your own Baptist groups do not agree with the stuff you are making up.


Once the "all call" is sounded for "any ol excuse will do" some of the more Bible-avoidance prone are bound to join in the chorus. I am sure you and I have both seen that before on various subjects.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[FONT=&quot]

That is just the point. Your own Baptists don't go for the story telling you are doing - how much less would someone who is NOT a Baptist want to climb wayyyyy out there on that limb where you have gone to escape the Bible teaching on "how to keep" the Sabbath by engaging in corporate worship and refraining from work.

Clearly you are grasping for straws.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[FONT=&quot] Originally Posted by BobRyan

There was no requirement for Lot to make Sodom keep Sabbath.

There was no requirement for Israel to make Babylon keep Sabbath while they were captive.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith - freely admits to the limits between the Civil laws of the theocracy and the MORAL law of the Ten Commandments.

Though to your credit - some of the Pharisees in Christ day tried your stunt on Christ - with the woman caught in adultery - while they were under Roman occupation.

[/FONT]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Not according to your own Baptist Confession of Faith.

As you "make stuff up" you are not only going against the Bible details - but even your own Baptist groups do not agree with the stuff you are making up.

Ok so - D.L. Moody, and the "Baptist Confession of Faith", and C.H. Spurgeon, and Andy Stanley and ... you know "Baptists".

As it turns out - I am not a Baptist -- you are .

This should not come as a surprise.

So then the "Baptist Confession of Faith" says.

[FONT=&quot]Section 19
. The Law of God [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of universal obedience which was written in his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]

You mix what your own sunday-keeping "Baptists" call the "sundry judicial" laws along with the "Mishnah" to get your "Sabbath days journey" and other items in your list.

Which you prefer to focus on instead of what you call "meaningless scripture" in Ex 20:8-11 calling for a day of rest on God's Sabbath, Is 66:23 Lev 23:1-3 calling for corporate worship on God's Sabbath.

So "yeah" these are the texts your own Baptists would affirm as you seek to focus on the Mishnah "instead". If even your own Baptists do not choose to go along with the "any ol excuse will do" idea for tossing the Ten Commandments under a bus - how much less would a NON Baptist want to join your game in that regard?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[FONT=&quot]Is 66
“And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.


NKJV

And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.


Lev 23
23 The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.


[/FONT]I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups, nor R.C Sproul.

 

I assemble for worship on Sabbath according to Is 66:23 and Lev 23:1-3.

I refrain from daily work on Sabbath as per Ex 20:8-11, and Isaiah 58:13.

I keep Sabbath from 'evening to evening' as God tells us in Lev 23.

I admit that it is in the "Commandments of God" - yes even in the TEN Commandments.

And since God says it is the "Seventh day" that IS the Sabbath in Ex 20:8-11 and was made a holy day in Gen 2:1-3 -- and that is the "Holy Day of the LORD" in Is 5:13... well I honor His Day - His Way.

Everyone has free will - you don't have to obey God just because I do.

This just does not get any easier.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups, nor R.C Sproul.

details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19

Each 10 or 20th time I mention these these sources as "Sunday keeping" you come back with utter gibberish nonsense of the form

" others that you misquote and slander, who do not keep the Sabbath, but rather have renamed the Sabbath as Sunday and keep it as a day set apart unto the Lord. Thus you continually misrepresent those whom you have quoted. Very deceitful!"

Is there any reader here who interprets my statement "well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19" above to be in any way slow to claim these sources as sunday keeping??

Really??

Not even ONE here who buys into DHK's wild slander?

Come on- I have to think it is working for at least one person here besides DHK.

I mean I know that vitriol, acrimony and diatribe go a long way with DHK and one or two others - but I have to think that even he would be embarrassed to keep posting right in the face of the plain facts here - if there were not at least one person paying so little attention to the details just posted that they would buy into his wild accusations.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Are we saved and made right with God thru observing the Law and keeping the Sabbath, or by the Cross of Christ?

can't have both save you!

 

I assemble for worship on Sabbath according to Is 66:23 and Lev 23:1-3.

I refrain from daily work on Sabbath as per Ex 20:8-11, and Isaiah 58:13.

I keep Sabbath from 'evening to evening' as God tells us in Lev 23.

I admit that it is in the "Commandments of God" - yes even in the TEN Commandments.

And since God says it is the "Seventh day" that IS the Sabbath in Ex 20:8-11 and was made a holy day in Gen 2:1-3 -- and that is the "Holy Day of the LORD" in Is 5:13... well I honor His Day - His Way.

You are welcome. I have posted them dozens of times so far - but if now is when we make "the connection" well then wonderful..

Prior to this you had been referring to these texts as "meaningless" in terms of telling us "HOW TO KEEP" the Sabbath.

I view this is a big step forward.

That is an excellent question that does not arise from any text listed above.

How do you suppose that is??

Do you have an OT text that tells you "do not travel more than a Sabbath day's journey " and then specifies what that actually is according to God?

Or are you using the Mishnah as your guide and wondering if I am inserting the Mishnah into the texts I have listed?

OR are you not wanting to admit that these texts speak to HOW to KEEP the Sabbath - even as I point out the details of what they say on that subject?

Just why the bait-and-switch at this point - jumping over to the Mishnah?

Did you also find that in the Sabbath texts I quoted?

Where?

In the OT, basic human services were allowed on Sabbath - Christ included pre-cross acrts of mercy, healing, Church services, work in the temple and in the OT - even the "Ox in the ditch" type of work to provide for basic needs was allowed.

Luke 14:5
5 Then He answered them, saying, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”


However there are some Orthodox Rabbis today that might just affirm your view of the Bible - even if your own Baptist Confession of Faith rejects the path you are taking.

In our day and age - electric generators -- gas pipelines etc are either "on or off". Church services require basic necessities - like electricity and gas, heating, sound, lights, and the sick in some cases require electric devices to keep them alive or out of serious health risk, as well as providing heat etc.

The generators are "either on or off". And so as many even of your own Sunday keeping sources admit - Matt 12:1-12 provides for basic necessities met on Sabbath even though the disciples were not "about to die" yet meeting basic needs was acceptable.

As we can all see from the texts you are ignoring and your "reach" to asking about "stick"s etc - your interest is not in what the Bible says on "how to KEEP" the Sabbath but rather you seem to be trying to find an "any ol excuse" out here. Not exactly 'sola scriptura' testing of doctrine and practice.

in Christ,

Bob