Imputed Righteousness of Christ

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

They are called "children of wrath" not due to their obedience but to their disobedience and thus they are included as "children of disobedience."

I just commented on that.

They are not said to be WORTHY of his wrath but rather "children of wrath"

I commented on that.

Your statement "that is God's reality" is nonsensical

Thats your opinion, But what's God's Eternal Purpose is to Him a Present Reality. He does not need to wait until it unfolds in time before He reckons it done.

Its written in Rom 4:

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

You see, God told Abraham that he had made him a Father of many nations, while Abraham was childless. To God Abraham was a Father, but to Abraham he was childless.

If they were never children of disobedience and never under wrath then for whom did Christ die and suffer condemnation for????

The scripture never called them children of disobedience, and they were never under God's wrath because Christ took their wrath and suffered their condemnation. They were just made sinners minus the condemnation and wrath they deserved.

And the fact that Christ died and suffered condemnation for them, further proves you wrong, because He took their place and their condemnation which should have been laid to their Charge, was instead laid to His Charge.

Your position is false and your interpretations are simply twisting the scriptures

My position is the Truth of the Grace of God, and unfortunately you cannot believe it..

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thats your opinion, But what's God's Eternal Purpose is to Him a Present Reality. He does not need to wait until it unfolds in time before He reckons it done.

Its written in Rom 4:

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

You see, God told Abraham that he had made him a Father of many nations, while Abraham was childless. To God Abraham was a Father, but to Abraham he was childless.

Note the wording "as though they were" not "they were"! Your statement claims them to be reality but the scripture you quote denies they are reality.

The scripture never called them children of disobedience, and they were never under God's wrath because Christ took their wrath and suffered their condemnation. They were just made sinners minus the condemnation and wrath they deserved.

You cannot be designated "children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS" and not be objects of condemnation simply because there is no grounds for wrath prior to just condemnation. In any court of law wrath follows condemnation rather than precedes it. Your position is unbiblical as well as illogical.

And the fact that Christ died and suffered condemnation for them, further proves you wrong, because He took their place and their condemnation which should have been laid to their Charge, was instead laid to His Charge.

You have them without condemnation BEFORE Christ died! You have them uncondemned, and not objects of wrath BEFORE the world was created in what you call God's reality. However, Christ died in time and space for what you claim were ALREADY without condemnation and were ALREADY not objects of wrath. Therefore, again, for whom did Christ die for and suffer condemnation under the wrath of God for IN TIME and IN SPACE if we were not "children of wrath EVEN AS others" and if we were not "among" those identified as "children of Disobedience"

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

Note the wording "as though they were" not "they were"! Your statement claims them to be reality but the scripture you quote denies they are reality.

It was a reality to God.

You cannot be designated "children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS" and not be objects of condemnation

Thats your opinion and not what scripture says. Christ was the object of condemnation on behalf of the elect.

You have them without condemnation BEFORE Christ died!

Yes, Their trespasses never were laid to their charge 2 Cor 5 19, what could they have been condemned for ?

 

[percho]

perch:



Rom 5 19 has Christ obedience in view and it is referring to His Death..

I agree, just as in Philippians 2 obedience unto death even death on the cross.

Do you think those two passages are obedience of faith? Keeping in mind this thought.

Hebrews 12:2 YLT looking to the author and perfecter of (the) faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;

Is that in bold directly related to him being author and perfecter?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



It was a reality to God.





Thats your opinion and not what scripture says. Christ was the object of condemnation on behalf of the elect.



Yes, Their trespasses never were laid to their charge 2 Cor 5 19, what could they have been condemned for ?

You are one confused dude! You have the elect uncondemned BEFORE Christ dies and yet you have Christ condemned for those who were never condemned. Ephesians 2:2-3 drives a stake in the very heart of your heresy. Paul says they were "children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS" and you deny they were "EVEN AS OTHERS" because others were condemned and that is why they were under wrath. John drives a stake into the heart of your heresy in John 3:36 by claiming all who are in unbelief are under the wrath of God. Paul says they were within (Gr. en) the group of those defined as "children of wrath" prior to regeneration but you deny they were within such a group prior to regeneration.

You have Christ dying for the uncondemned and suffering wrath for those never under wrath. In essence you have trashed the atonement.
I will take Paul and John over you and your unbiblical teaching.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



It was a reality to God.

It was not God's reality, it was God's purpose or design. God simply viewed such according to His ultimate purpose rather than denied the present actual reality. That is what the words "as though" mean but your position denies the very meaning of these words. God is not delusional and God does not deny the reality of sin and condemned state of his elect. His purpose will overule the present reality (Isa. 46:9-11).

You have a delusional god.

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

It was not God's reality

What scripture says it wasn't ?

You are one confused dude! You have the elect uncondemned BEFORE Christ dies

No you are confused, the elect never had their sins charged to them 2 Cor 5:


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Christ was Charged with the elect's sins before the foundation of the world in the Everlasting Covenant. When He came into the world it was for the purpose of dying for the sins of the elect already charged unto Him.

Heb 10:

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The elect were never, ever charged with one single sin, Christ was, Why do you think He came to die ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



What scripture says it wasn't ?

"AS THOUGH" - These two words are worthless if it was a present reality when God promised it.

No you are confused, the elect never had their sins charged to them 2 Cor 5:


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Christ was Charged with the elect's sins before the foundation of the world in the Everlasting Covenant. When He came into the world it was for the purpose of dying for the sins of the elect already charged unto Him.

You said correctly when you said "in the Everlasting covenant" or God's eternal purpose. However, in TIME and SPACE they were under "condemnation" and thus were charged with their sins or else there is no need to call upon them to "REPENT." You do not need to "REPENT" unless you are CHARGED WITH SIN! God did not charge the elect with sin within the confines of HIS ETERNAL COVENANT but they were charged with sin IN TIME and SPACE. Christ provided the purchase price and suffered FOR THEM thus again indicating that IN TIME AND SPACE they were guilty, condemned and IN NEED of redemption.

Heb 10:

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The elect were never, ever charged with one single sin, Christ was, Why do you think He came to die ?

He came to die BECAUSE THE ELECT WERE CHARGED WITH SIN and He provided the REDEMPTION FROM THAT CHARGE. They are called on to REPENT because they are CHARGED with sin or else no repentance is necessary. They are justified because they were condemned or else no justification is necessary. You are confusing God's Eternal Purpose with time and space reality.

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

He came to die BECAUSE THE ELECT WERE CHARGED WITH SIN

Wrong, He came to die because He had been charged with the elects sins. The elect world never had its sins imputed or charged unto them 2 Cor 5:19


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



Wrong, He came to die because He had been charged with the elects sins. The elect world never had its sins imputed or charged unto them 2 Cor 5:19


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The elect HAVE NO SIN unless it is charged to them first! Hence, the only SINLESS state is found in God's eternal covenant/purpose not in time and space. Christ cannot be charged with sin that does not exist and neither can he pay for sin that does not exist. He can only pay for sin that has its basis in time and space and thus has been charged to the elect in time and space. When you confuse God's eternal covenant with time and space you make a muddle of God's Word.

1. If there be no charge of sin there is no need to repent
2. If there be no charge of sin there is no need for redemption from sin
3. If there be no chargne of sin there can be no condemnation due to sin
4. If there be no charge of sin there can be no disobedience
5. If there be no charge of sin there can be no sinners.

You quote texts that refer to Christ's provision in keeping with God's eternal purpose rather than with time and space reality. As far as God's purpose is concerned they are already justified and even glorified but as far as time and space is concerned they have not been called, justified or glorified except within the confines of time and space.

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

The elect HAVE NO SIN unless it is charged to them first!

Christ was Charged with the sins of the elect, because they were not imputed unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Christ was slain in the Purpose of God from the foundation Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [for the sins of the elect] from the foundation of the world.

As Far as God was concerned, Christ had those sins that were put to His charge upon Him from the foundation, before one elect sinner was even born..

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I believe our sins were imputed to Christ. But I am not sure whether we can say the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. ( I rather doubt)

I believe that Christ redeemed us from our sins, not imputed his righteousness to us.

I think the theological term for this is "YIKES!"

Can one be a Christian if they don't believe the Biblical doctrine of imputed righteousness?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



Christ was Charged with the sins of the elect, because they were not imputed unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Christ was slain in the Purpose of God from the foundation Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [for the sins of the elect] from the foundation of the world.

As Far as God was concerned, Christ had those sins that were put to His charge upon Him from the foundation, before one elect sinner was even born..

Christ can have no sinned charged to him at all if the elect NEVER were charged with sin because Christ never sinned! So whose sin was it? If the sin was never charged to the elect then it must have been the sin of the non-elect charged to Christ.

What you should have said and meant was "As far as God's purpose is concerned, Christ had those sins that were to to his charge upon him from the foundation of the world, before one elect sinner was ever born OR EVER SINNED."

Again, you are confusing God's purpose with time and space reality. You cannot even talk about sin or sinners apart from time and space realty or else from whence can the elect even be called sinners??????????

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

Christ can have no sinned charged to him at all if the elect NEVER were charged with sin

The sin they were charged with were laid to His account. Let me ask you this. Christ died for the sins of the elect over 2000 yrs ago. We know without shadow of doubt that He died for sin back in 33 ad or thereabouts. Now, what say you of those elect that Christ has died for and they were not born sinners until lets say the 1940's. Will a elect person or persons born subsequent to Christ death for them, are they born condemned for their sins ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



The sin they were charged with were laid to His account. Let me ask you this. Christ died for the sins of the elect over 2000 yrs ago. We know without shadow of doubt that He died for sin back in 33 ad or thereabouts. Now, what say you of those elect that Christ has died for and they were not born sinners until lets say the 1940's. Will a elect person or persons born subsequent to Christ death for them, are they born condemned for their sins ?

It is one thing to be condemned as a legal verdict as opposed to being condemned by penal consequences. It is one thing to be under the TEMPORAL wrath of God as opposed to suffering the ETERNAL wrath of God.

Christ suffered the ETERNAL wrath of God for all the elect because all the elect were by legal verdict condemned as sinners for their sin and thus "children of disobedience" by nature and by practice "EVEN AS OTHERS."

All the elect were "children of wrath" becuase they were "children of disobedience" EVEN AS OTHERS. However, none of the elect had the ETERNAL PENAL consequences of sin charged to them as Christ suffered that in their stead.

In time and space all the elect sinned and were sinners and by that very designation were condemned by legal verdict. All the elect were subject to TEMPORAL wrath.

 

[savedbymercy]

dr.walt:

It is one thing to be condemned as a legal verdict as opposed to being condemned by penal consequences. It is one thing to be under the TEMPORAL wrath of God as opposed to suffering the ETERNAL wrath of God.

Please answer the question, I will ask it one more time.

Let me ask you this. Christ died for the sins of the elect over 2000 yrs ago. We know without shadow of doubt that He died for sin back in 33 ad or thereabouts. Now, what say you of those elect that Christ has died for and they were not born sinners until lets say the 1940's.

Will a elect person or persons born subsequent to Christ death for them, are they born condemned for their sins ? Yes or No and then give your reason. Thanks !

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr.walt:



Please answer the question, I will ask it one more time.

Let me ask you this. Christ died for the sins of the elect over 2000 yrs ago. We know without shadow of doubt that He died for sin back in 33 ad or thereabouts. Now, what say you of those elect that Christ has died for and they were not born sinners until lets say the 1940's.

Will a elect person or persons born subsequent to Christ death for them, are they born condemned for their sins ? Yes or No and then give your reason. Thanks !

Think about the time element in your question! You are implying that those born sinners before the cross were condemned but those subsequent to the cross cannot be born condemned.

My answer is that it makes no difference when they were born, but just as Christ told Nicodemus they were "condemned already" (Jn. 3:18) in Adam (Rom. 5:12-18) and subsequently condemned by their own practice and under the temporal "wrath" of God as "children of wrath" EVEN AS OTHERS because they were "children of disobedience" EVEN AS OTHERS. It is the condemnation, in regard to penalty, it is eternal wrath that was charged to Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt

My answer is that it makes no difference when they were born,

Since you cannot answer that question honesty with a yes or not, I have nothing else for you, it appears to me you do not understand the death of Christ and what it accomplished before God's Justice. It also appears you are saying that those whom Christ has satisfied the Fathers wrath in their behalf for all their sins, that they are still legally condemned for them anyway in their lifetime, regardless of what Christ has done.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt



Since you cannot answer that question honesty with a yes or not, I have nothing else for you, it appears to me you do not understand the death of Christ and what it accomplished before God's Justice. It also appears you are saying that those whom Christ has satisfied the Fathers wrath in their behalf for all their sins, that they are still legally condemned for them anyway in their lifetime, regardless of what Christ has done.

Your question is flawed. Your question PRESUMES that pre-cross saints are saved one way and post-cross saints are saved another way. Do you really believe that? If you don't, then what is the point of choosing a post-cross time frame?????

Also, you took a snippet of my response when I answered your question in greater detail. Common sense tells you that you cannot be "children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS" without first being condemned EVEN AS OTHERS. Jesus told Nicodemus - an elect - that he was "condemned already" when in unbelief. John told his hearers that they were already under "the wrath" of God (Jn. 3:36).

You seemingly cannot distinguish between a LEGAL verdict versus the LEGAL administration of the penalty for that verdict!!! No one can be called or considered a sinner except by LEGAL verdict but that does not mean they will be administered the LEGAL penalty.

No elect will suffer the LEGAL penalty of condemnation as that was charged to and administered upon Jesus Christ for all His people. That does not mean His people were not born condemned sinners. It does not mean they were not legally under wrath. It only means that legal wrath would never be administered because it was to be administerd upon Christ in their behalf.

While we were yet condemned as "sinners" Christ died for us. That is, during our TIME and SPACE condition as condemned sinners before we were actually justified in time and space Christ died for us -slain from the foundation of the world in type and in God's purpose as well as slain in TIME and SPACE. For saints living before the cross they were born into this world as condemned sinners and thus LEGALLY under the wrath of God even as others, just as those born after the cross. Christ's redemption according to God's eternal purpose was for his people and they were regarded as already glorified according to his eternal purpose. However, in TIME and SPACE the redemption was not procurred until Christ actually came, lived and died and it was not actually applied to the elect until God's appointment in TIME and SPACE upon that elect.

You are confusing God's purpose with actual time and space events and applications. You are confusing legal verdict with legal administration of the penalty for that verdict. You are simply confused.

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

Your question is flawed.

Ok , Then I dont have anything else for you..