Imputed Righteousness

[KenH]

If man has no free will with which to hear and believe the gospel message then what does Eph 1:13 mean?

See my post #300 above.

Or Isa_45:22

Again, see my post #300 above.

And why the great commission itself? Mat_28:19-20

Again, see my post #300 above.

There were those outside of the area in which Jesus preached who were also His sheep and the gospel of His finished work on their behalf must be proclaimed to them, as well as those in Israel.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Silverhair]

Those God chose for salvation are born into this world spiritual dead just as those God reprobated. God's elect must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and granted the gifts of faith in the finished work of Christ and repentance of dead works.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
3But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So you think someone is saved prior to them trusting in God. Wrong but that has been pointed out to calvinists any many times.

 

[KenH]

So you think someone is saved prior to them trusting in God.

No one has faith in the finished work of Christ on his behalf until he is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

See my post #300 above.



Again, see my post #300 above.



Again, see my post #300 above.

There were those outside of the area in which Jesus preached who were also His sheep and the gospel of His finished work on their behalf must be proclaimed to them, as well as those in Israel.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Your post # 300 does not support what you think it does Ken.

When you deny clear scripture then it is not the word of God you believe but yourself and those that teach what you want to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

No one has faith in the finished work of Christ on his behalf until he is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Not what the bible says but you seem to be comfortable with that particular view.

Even Sproul recognized the folly of your view.
“Once Luther grasped the teaching of Paul in Romans, he was reborn” (R. C. Sproul, The Holiness of God, 1993 edition, p. 144).

You keep putting the card before the horse Ken.

If regeneration precedes faith, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved. If a person is regenerated, then he is born of God, a member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal life. If you are a member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal life, then you are already saved. So what need is there for faith?

Charles Spurgeon recognized the folly of saying that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe:
“If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.” [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

 

[KenH]

If one is already regenerated by the Holy Spirit then they are already saved so why would they need faith?

1 John 5:13
"That ye may know that ye have eternal life."

1 John 5:19-20
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[Silverhair]

1 John 5:13
"That ye may know that ye have eternal life."

1 John 5:19-20
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Ken those verses do not help you saved before one believes position.

As the bible says we are saved by grace through faith.

For your position to be biblical that text should have read this way, we are saved by grace unto faith. But it does not so it is obvious that your view is wrong.

 

[KenH]

For your position to be biblical that text should have read this way

The Holy Scriptures are quite complete as written and give ALL of the glory for man's salvation to God and NONE to the creature; and prove beyond doubt to Christ's sheep, chosen by God before the world began, that salvation is 100% by God's free and sovereign grace, and has nothing to do with creature will or exertion.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[Silverhair]

The Holy Scriptures are quite complete as written and give ALL of the glory for man's salvation to God and NONE to the creature; and prove beyond doubt to Christ's sheep, chosen by God before the world began, that salvation is 100% by God's free and sovereign grace, and has nothing to do with creature will or exertion.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ken is is obvious the man does not save himself from the verse that I posted.

Where you error is when you say your "elect " were chose B4 creation. That is not biblical but it is calvinist.

Those that are saved are as the bible says by grace through faith. Those that hear and believe the gospel message will be saved.

Calvinism has twisted the word of God to say that those that have been saved will then be given faith so they can believe. Again your view is not biblical but it is calvinism.
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" Calvinist Loraine Boettner

Even the verse you quoted does not support your case of chosen B4 creation. All it does is show that the false assurance of salvation through works and bloodlines is wrong. One is saved by God when they freely trust in Him.

 

[KenH]

Where you error is when you say your "elect " were chose B4 creation. That is not biblical

Yes, it is Biblical. I believe the Scriptures.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

2 Timothy 1:9-10
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Those that hear and believe the gospel message will be saved.

Yes, Christ's sheep, God's elect, whom He chose before the world began.

John 10:2-5
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Again your view is not biblical

Yes, it is Biblical. I believe the Scriptures.

As long as one remains a natural man(including God's elect), he will not receive the gospel of Christ. He must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to receive the gospel of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[Edited to correctly spell "receive" correctly in the last paragraph before the 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 quote.]

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, it is Biblical. I believe the Scriptures.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

2 Timothy 1:9-10
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.



Yes, Christ's sheep, God's elect, whom He chose before the world began.

John 10:2-5
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.



Yes, it is Biblical. I believe the Scriptures.

As long as one remains a natural man(including God's elect), he will not receive the gospel of Christ. He must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to received the gospel of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ken you give me your calvinist talking points but scripture does not support your view.

This has been pointed out on this board many many times. No one was saved prior to creation although God did foreknow all those that would freely trust in Him.

If one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit then they have been saved so again you have people saved prior to them even having faith in Christ Jesus. The theology that you are presenting is not biblical but rather a man-made religion.

But for you as a consistent calvinist it has been determined by God that you will follow that non-biblical view. Why He would do that I do not know but as you say "His ways are higher than our ways" so He must have a good reason for doing so.

 

[KenH]

you have people saved prior to them even having faith in Christ Jesus.

When God chose His elect before time began and gave them to His Son to be their Surety, it was a "done deal". During their lifetime, all of God's elect will be brought under the hearing of the gospel, which the Holy Spirit will use to regenerate them and grant them the gifts of faith in the finished work of Christ and repentance of dead works.

I thank God that He made me willing in the day of HIS power to hear and follow Christ, and not man.

Psalm 110:3
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

 

[KenH]

although God did foreknow all those that would freely trust in Him.

The God of the Bible, the Creator of everything, is not some mere crystal ball gazer. He is the Sovereign of everything, and not an atom moves outside of His power and purpose.

 

[Tea]

John would not have said Christ was the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world if were not possible for all men to believe.

If it is true that the sins of the whole world have been satisfied, why do some people go to hell?

 

[KenH]

If it is true that the sins of the whole world have been satisfied, why do some people go to hell?

Excellent point.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If "all" always means everybody who was ever born, then since everybody ever born in Adam(all of his descendants, including anyone reading this) died in Adam, then everybody ever born would be made alive in Christ and saved. The "all" would have to mean the same group of individuals.

But obviously, when one takes the Bible as a whole, we know that the all in Adam is all of Adam's descendants(including anyone reading this), and the all in Christ is all those for whom Christ was made their Surety before the world began. to redeem them and bring them to glory in Himself. The "all" is not the same group of individuals. All in Christ are included in the all in Adam, but the all in Christ does not include everybody that is in Adam.

 

[Charlie24]

If it is true that the sins of the whole world have been satisfied, why do some people go to hell?

Adam's fall condemned all men to death both physically and spiritually through the Law of Sin and Death.

Now man is eternally separated from God with no hope of saving himself from the wrath of God.

So God in His mercy and Grace sends an acceptable perfect sacrifice in His Son as a propitiation for the sins of all men.

Now the satisfaction for sin is as wide as the sin and whoever perishes and does not benefit from this sacrifice cannot blame God, but only blame themselves for rejecting the sacrifice.

 

[Tea]

So according to your view Since God desires all to be saved 1Ti 2:4 He was either lying or He does not have the power to carry out His desire.

God is not lying and does not lack power; rather, it's a lack of understanding on your part of who the "all" are.

Further according to you He has to determine all things or nothing comes to pass so He is responsible for all the sin and evil. No the God of scripture but you seem to be comfortable with that view.

And you cannot even say that man sins by his own choice as you just said that even that was part of God's sovereign decree.

You do realize that you have just made God out to be a monster.

Once again, I do not affirm that God is responsible for all the sin and evil—man is.

What would make God as a monster is the knowledge of all the evil that will occur in advance, without any purpose behind it. He has the ability to prevent it if He chooses, yet He does not.

So did Adam have a free will or not?
You seem quite confused about your own theology. According to the LBCF and calvinism God has to determine all things or He is not God.

He did and I'm not confused about it at all.

Did I say the plan for redemption through faith in the risen Christ was not God's plan? Nope did not say that.

Is that not how you view Ephesians 1:4?

And we have like sheep have all gone astray. Both Jew and Gentile have gone astray. And as we see in scripture He laid down His life for the whole world 1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

No, the whole world has not been propitiated for because it's evident that many people are damned. In context, it's Jews and Gentiles from the whole world.

Even those secondary cause, man's desires, have to have been determined by your version of God as you say He determines all things or He is not God.

There were many moving parts in the garden. God was not responsible for Adam's disobedience.

The calvinist limits God in that He can only save a select group even though He desires all tho be saved.

The synergist limits God in that He can only save people if they allow Him to. If He desires all of the elect to be saved, His purposes will be accomplished.

Why bother with the gospel message if no one could respond to it and why would a just God hold them responsible for not doing something that it is impossible for them to do?

The natural man rejects the Gospel by their own choice. God simply allows them to stay that way.

If the turned from God it has to mean that at one time they trusted in Him,

It's not possible to be redeemed by God and then be lost. I don't believe that a person can lose their salvation.

One is only given a new heart after they have trusted in God not so they will trust in God.

They can only trust God if they have been given a new heart first.

There is a vast difference between 1} God foreknowing all that will happen, Him being Omniscient, and 2} God having to respond to what does happens as we see in open theism.

If He is aware of everything that will occur, then the outcome can't be changed. Are you like the Molonists who assert that God fashioned a world with the optimal result of individuals who will be saved by willingly placing their trust in Him?

But you will have to concede that your divine determinism does make God the cause of all sin and evil as for the calvinist if He does not determine all things then He can not be God.

I will reiterate once more that God determined everything that happens, but it was done in such a way that does NOT make Him the author of evil.

 

[Tea]

No.
1 John 5:10, . . . he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Yes.

John 8:47 (ESV)
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

 

[Charlie24]

Adam's fall condemned all men to death both physically and spiritually through the Law of Sin and Death.

Now man is eternally separated from God with no hope of saving himself from the wrath of God.

So God in His mercy and Grace sends an acceptable perfect sacrifice in His Son as a propitiation for the sins of all men.

Now the satisfaction for sin is as wide as the sin and whoever perishes and does not benefit from this sacrifice cannot blame God, but only blame themselves for rejecting the sacrifice.

Only the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus can set man free from the Law of Sin and Death.

Rom. 8:2

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

How do we know we have been made free from the Law of Sin and Death?

Rom. 10:9-10

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."