Imputed Righteousness

[Van]

Aw man, are you for real? I should be learned now of entering into a conversation with you!

More fault finding, but no answer. Folks ask yourselves why such a simple question is too hard for this poster to answer.

Will you say you believe no one is saved unless God credits their faith as righteousness?

 

[Charlie24]

More fault finding, but no answer. Folks ask yourselves why such a simple question is too hard for this poster to answer.

Will you say you believe no one is saved unless God credits their faith as righteousness?

It's impossible to be saved without God making that declaration.

That's just common sense!

 

[Brightfame52]

I'm following Paul's instructions for salvation, and you insist it's works.

He is the only author of Scripture that explains salvation and tells exactly what it is and what to do.

You are not following Paul , for he did not teach a conditional salvation

 

[Van]

It's impossible to be saved without God making that declaration.

That's just common sense!

Was that a yes?

 

[KenH]

your view has you saved prior to hearing or believing the gospel message.

“Faith is the evidence and manifestation of justification, and therefore justification must be before it; "Faith is the evidence of things not seen", (Hebrews 11:1) but it is not the evidence of that which as yet is not; what it is an evidence of, must be, and it must exist before it. The "righteousness of God", of the God-man and mediator Jesus Christ, "is revealed from faith to faith", in the everlasting gospel, (Romans 1:17) and therefore must be before it is revealed, and before faith, to which it is revealed: faith is that grace whereby a soul, having seen its guilt, and its want of righteousness, beholds, in the light of the divine Spirit, a complete righteousness in Christ, renounces its own, lays hold off that, puts it on as a garment, rejoices in it, and glories of it; the Spirit of God witnessing to his spirit, that he is a justified person; and so he is evidently and declaratively "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11).
…
Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

2b1. From eternal election: the objects of justification are God's elect; "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? it is God that justifies"; that is, the elect. Now if God's elect, as such, can have nothing laid to their charge; but are by God acquitted, discharged, and justified; and if they bore this character of elect from eternity, or were chosen in Christ before the world began; then they must be acquitted, discharged and justified so early, so as nothing could be laid to their charge: besides, by electing grace men were put into Christ, and were considered as in him before the foundation of the world; and if they were considered as in him, they must be considered as righteous or unrighteous; not surely as unrighteous, unjustified, and in a state of condemnation; for "there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ", (Romans 8:1) and therefore must be considered as righteous, and so justified: "Justified then we were, says Dr. Goodwin when first elected, though not in our own persons, yet in our Head, as he had our persons then given him, and we came to have a being and an interest in him."
…
2b3. Justification is one of those spiritual blessings with which the elect are blessed in Christ according to election-grace, before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3 4). That justification is a spiritual blessing none will deny; and if the elect were blessed with all spiritual blessings, then with this; and if thus blessed according to election, or when elected, then before the foundation of the world: and this grace of justification must be no small part of that "grace which was given in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world was" (2 Timothy 1:9).
…
2b6. It was the will of God from everlasting, not to punish sin in the persons of his elect, but to punish it in the person of Christ; and that it was his will not to punish it in his people, but in his Son, is manifest from his setting him forth in his purposes and decrees, to be the atoning sacrifice for sin; and from his sending him forth in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin in the flesh; and from his being made sin and a curse, that his people might be made the righteousness of God in him. Now, as has been often observed, no new will can arise in God; God wills nothing in time, but what he willed from eternity; and if it was the eternal will of God not to punish sin in his people, but in his Son, then they were eternally discharged, acquitted from sin, and secured from everlasting wrath and destruction; and if they were eternally discharged from sin, and freed from punishment, they were eternally justified: Dr. Twisse makes the very quiddity and essence of justification and remission of sin, which he takes to be the same, to lie in the will of God not to punish; and asserts, that this will not to punish, as it is an immanent act, was from eternity.”

- excerpts from John Gill's A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

 

[Charlie24]

You are not following Paul , for he did not teach a conditional salvation

"IF thou shalt confess the Lord Jesus..." Rom. 10:9-10

What does the IF mean, BF?

I will pay you $500 IF you will help me do some work.

What does the IF mean?

 

[Van]

Folks we know how all those who believe in "unconditional election" would answer the question, they would say NO, since according to their doctrine of total spiritual inability the lost are unable to seek God or trust in Christ. Never mind Luke 13:24

How would Arminians answer the question. They say God foresaw individuals before creation with foreseen faith, and chose them. It gets a little sketchy when we consider just how God knew their innermost beliefs, before He created their minds to hold such beliefs. It is a do loop, God creates our human spirit within us, thus a unique life force within the fertilized human egg. But when He creates the individual, He already knows every thought and decision that individual will ever make, including those made by "chance." Yep, hangs together quite well...

What if God chooses individuals for salvation through credited faith? That would mean God did not choose individuals through foreseen faith. When did God credit Abraham's faith? After Abraham came to have that faith during his lifetime. The crediting occurs in the present, not before creation. Is that the problem? I do not know...

 

[Van]

Please tell Van that, he seems to see something different.

Of course I see something different. Who would claim we are first sealed in Christ, then put into Him. Good grief. None of these posters seem to know we are made firm or established in Christ BEFORE we are sealed in Christ. Not one...

 

[Charlie24]

Of course I see something different. Who would claim we are first sealed in Christ, then put into Him. Good grief. None of these posters seem to know we are made firm or established in Christ BEFORE we are sealed in Christ. Not one...

Everyone I've talked to believes it all happens at the same time, instantly.

But you have to set an order of things, for what reason I have no idea.

 

[KenH]

"IF thou shalt confess the Lord Jesus..." Rom. 10:9-10

God's elect, under the hearing of the gospel of the finished work of Christ, do confess Christ Jesus. They do so as part of the provision of God's grace, and do so by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit; they don't somehow well it up within themselves by their own spiritual power, of which they have none, just as those God reprobated do not have their own spiritual power, due to being born in the flesh as a son of Adam.

The question is not whether God's elect have faith in the finished work of Christ and do repent from dead works. They do. The question is whether their faith and repentance is by their own power or the power of God.

God's elect have faith and repentance by God's power.

False professors claim to have faith and repentance by their own natural power.

 

[Van]

Everyone I've talked to believes it all happens at the same time, instantly.

But you have to set an order of things, for what reason I have no idea.

How can a person be made firm or established in Christ, before they are sealed in Christ if no sequence exists?

 

[Charlie24]

God's elect, under the hearing of the gospel of the finished work of Christ, do confess Christ Jesus. They do so as part of the provision of God's grace, and do so by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit; they don't somehow well it up within themselves by their own spiritual power, of which they have none, just as those God reprobated do not have their own spiritual power, due to being born in the flesh as a son of Adam.

The question is not whether God's elect have faith in the finished work of Christ and do repent from dead works. They do. The question is whether their faith and repentance is by their own power or the power of God.

God's elect have faith and repentance by God's power.

False professors claim to have faith and repentance by their own natural power.

This is a misunderstanding of Total Depravity, to the point that man has no ability of his own to do anything but obey God.

This is where so many claim the Calvinists as robots.

They refuse to accept that man can say NO to God if he so chooses.

 

[KenH]

"This is a misunderstanding of Total Depravity, to the point that man has no ability of his own"

It's what the Bible teaches:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Van]

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NASB
Now He who (1) establishes us with you in Christ and (2) anointed us is God, who also (3) sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

(1) God puts us people into Christ
(2) God causes them to be born anew, the washing of regeneration
(3) God then, after we have been born anew, seals us within Christ with the Holy Spirit, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

 

[Charlie24]

It's what the Bible teaches:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural man" is the unsaved man, which all of us were at one time.

The natural man/unsaved man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, until the Spirit breaks through man's depravity and present the truth of Jesus Christ with the Gospel.

Then man is faced with a choice to accept that truth and believe or reject it.

If he chooses to believe and accept Christ, then the teaching process begins, the foolishness is no longer foolishness, but a fact believed from the heart.

 

[Silverhair]

Total fiction, God knows, repeat knows our inner most thoughts and beliefs. All these innuendo posts are based on animosity.

It is not fiction Van it is a question. The way you write it would seem that God has to think about whether to grant it as real or unreal faith.

You seem to have a persecution complex Van. Not everyone that questions your views is out to get you.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 1:13 NASB
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Sequence:
(1) Listening to the message of truth, the gospel
(2) Then having believed that gospel, determined by God crediting your faith as righteousness.
(3) Then you were transferred spiritually into Christ, thus you were "In Him."
(4) Lastly you were sealed within Him with the Holy Spirit of our promised bodily redemption.

 

[Silverhair]

“Faith is the evidence and manifestation of justification, and therefore justification must be before it; "Faith is the evidence of things not seen", (Hebrews 11:1) but it is not the evidence of that which as yet is not; what it is an evidence of, must be, and it must exist before it. The "righteousness of God", of the God-man and mediator Jesus Christ, "is revealed from faith to faith", in the everlasting gospel, (Romans 1:17) and therefore must be before it is revealed, and before faith, to which it is revealed: faith is that grace whereby a soul, having seen its guilt, and its want of righteousness, beholds, in the light of the divine Spirit, a complete righteousness in Christ, renounces its own, lays hold off that, puts it on as a garment, rejoices in it, and glories of it; the Spirit of God witnessing to his spirit, that he is a justified person; and so he is evidently and declaratively "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11).
…
Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

2b1. From eternal election: the objects of justification are God's elect; "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? it is God that justifies"; that is, the elect. Now if God's elect, as such, can have nothing laid to their charge; but are by God acquitted, discharged, and justified; and if they bore this character of elect from eternity, or were chosen in Christ before the world began; then they must be acquitted, discharged and justified so early, so as nothing could be laid to their charge: besides, by electing grace men were put into Christ, and were considered as in him before the foundation of the world; and if they were considered as in him, they must be considered as righteous or unrighteous; not surely as unrighteous, unjustified, and in a state of condemnation; for "there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ", (Romans 8:1) and therefore must be considered as righteous, and so justified: "Justified then we were, says Dr. Goodwin when first elected, though not in our own persons, yet in our Head, as he had our persons then given him, and we came to have a being and an interest in him."
…
2b3. Justification is one of those spiritual blessings with which the elect are blessed in Christ according to election-grace, before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3 4). That justification is a spiritual blessing none will deny; and if the elect were blessed with all spiritual blessings, then with this; and if thus blessed according to election, or when elected, then before the foundation of the world: and this grace of justification must be no small part of that "grace which was given in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world was" (2 Timothy 1:9).
…
2b6. It was the will of God from everlasting, not to punish sin in the persons of his elect, but to punish it in the person of Christ; and that it was his will not to punish it in his people, but in his Son, is manifest from his setting him forth in his purposes and decrees, to be the atoning sacrifice for sin; and from his sending him forth in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin in the flesh; and from his being made sin and a curse, that his people might be made the righteousness of God in him. Now, as has been often observed, no new will can arise in God; God wills nothing in time, but what he willed from eternity; and if it was the eternal will of God not to punish sin in his people, but in his Son, then they were eternally discharged, acquitted from sin, and secured from everlasting wrath and destruction; and if they were eternally discharged from sin, and freed from punishment, they were eternally justified: Dr. Twisse makes the very quiddity and essence of justification and remission of sin, which he takes to be the same, to lie in the will of God not to punish; and asserts, that this will not to punish, as it is an immanent act, was from eternity.”

- excerpts from John Gill's A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

So John Gill writes from a calvinist point of view. This may surprise you but I do not care what J. Gill has to say on the matter. It is just his opinion.

Why is it that the calvinist runs back to other calvinists to support their view.

If the word of God supported your view then why do you not post clear text that does just that.

 

[Charlie24]

Ephesians 1:13 NASB
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Sequence:
(1) Listening to the message of truth, the gospel
(2) Then having believed that gospel, determined by God crediting your faith as righteousness.
(3) Then you were transferred spiritually into Christ, thus you were "In Him."
(4) Lastly you were sealed within Him with the Holy Spirit of our promised bodily redemption.

Is it possible that all 4 steps you've given can be completed at one time, in seconds?

 

[KenH]

Then man is faced with a choice

And God's elect, during their lifetime, by the enabling power of God to make them willing, will have saving faith in the finished work of Christ and repent from dead works.

Those God reprobated, during their lifetime, will not be enabled by the power of God and made willing, and will not have saving faith in the finished work of Christ nor repent from dead works.