In Adam all die

[agedman]

Genesis 1:
15The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
​

1 Corinthians 15:

20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “Godc has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.​

42So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;e the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shallf also bear the image of the man of heaven.
​

Ephesians 2:

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

​

Revelations 20:

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

 

[agedman]

Often one will talk of “spiritual” death.

However, the Scriptures present the lost as “dead” and “as perishing” but I cannot find a verse that states one as “spiritually dead.”

For example in Titus this is stated: “But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.”

In light that the Scriptures do not seem to present three deaths, but two, can you find the third?

 

[agedman]

Because the NT is written in Greek, the word transliterated "thanatos" is used for the English word death.

Originally, the greeks used it as a shadowy figure who would grace one by bringing a cease to existence. This person (considered a minor Greek God) was non-violent, and is thought to caress one at the point of death.

Similarly, one sees from the thrown of God the angel of death who passed through Egypt.

The Gospels use this word abundantly. For instance in John 8: it uses it in these verses:

51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’​

And Luke uses this word repeatedly in tis manner:
Luke 22:

33But he said to Him, “Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!”​

Luke 23:

15“No, nor has Herod, for he sent Him back to us; and behold, nothing deserving death has been done by Him.​

And in the same chapter:

22And he said to them the third time, “Why, what evil has this man done? I have found in Him no guilt demanding death; therefore I will punish Him and release Him.”​

There are more places this word is used in the Gospels.

Another word is "epithanatios" which is one condemn, and the death rattle. Those who have watch one die may have witnessed such as the built up gases escape a dead person. The word is specific (If I recall) to only 1 Corinthians 4:9 were it says:

9For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.​

One that is subject to death, yet still living is found in the term "thnétos". It is used in Romans 8:

11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
​

Which brings us to another word, "nekros" It is used in the above verse translated, death. It sustains the meaning of a corpse, one that is lifeless.

Closely aligned to that word is "nekroó" which is one that is put to death, as good as dead or to be considered as dead. The Romans 4:19, and Colossians 3:5 carry this. If my memory serves so does Hebrews when it is discussing Abraham's body was as good as dead yet Isaac was begotten.

Ok that is enough for the this time.

Which one of the above do you think is used in Romans 6:23, "The wages of sin is death..." and how is it that some take that as "spiritual death?"

 

[loDebar]

Sin is spiritual, Sin affects the physical, The physical cannot sin

We also know the physically alive can be spiritually dead.

 

[JonC]

Scripture only presents two options - the "flesh" and the "spirit". The flesh is referred to as "sinful flesh" (Jesus came in the likeness of "sinful flesh"). Those who are saved are "born of the spirit".

 

[agedman]

Scripture only presents two options - the "flesh" and the "spirit". The flesh is referred to as "sinful flesh" (Jesus came in the likeness of "sinful flesh"). Those who are saved are "born of the spirit".

Sin is spiritual, Sin affects the physical, The physical cannot sin

We also know the physically alive can be spiritually dead.

What presentation is death considered "spiritual death" in the Scriptures.

Again, I started a list of the use of the word death in the NT.

Have you found a word used either from the list I presented (for it was not exhaustive) or from your own study that would show death used as "spiritual" and not applying directly to the physical?

The Revelation 20:

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
​

Revelation 20 uses the word "thanatos" and if one looks at the way the word is used (post #3) it means.......

 

[loDebar]

What presentation is death considered "spiritual death" in the Scriptures.

Again, I started a list of the use of the word death in the NT.

Have you found a word used either from the list I presented (for it was not exhaustive) or from your own study that would show death used as "spiritual" and not applying directly to the physical?

The Revelation 20:

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
​

Revelation 20 uses the word "thanatos" and if one looks at the way the word is used (post #3) it means.......

The lost, or unrepentant , are spiritually dead.

Luk 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

We are quickened in Christ from being dead

Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

 

[loDebar]

The lost, or unrepentant , are spiritually dead.

Luk 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

We are quickened in Christ from being dead

Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Scripture is normally spiritually.

 

[JonC]

What presentation is death considered "spiritual death" in the Scriptures.

Again, I started a list of the use of the word death in the NT.

Have you found a word used either from the list I presented (for it was not exhaustive) or from your own study that would show death used as "spiritual" and not applying directly to the physical?

The Revelation 20:

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
​

Revelation 20 uses the word "thanatos" and if one looks at the way the word is used (post #3) it means.......

Scripture does not speak of a "spiritual death". That which is born of the spirit is spirit, that which is born of flesh is flesh. Those who perish at the Judgment are those without life (they are not of the spirit).

Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 15.

45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Men "dying spiritually" is simply unbiblical. The Second Death is, as you indicate, the lake of fire. Those who are thrown into the lake of fire were never spiritually alive.

 

[JonC]

Scripture is normally spiritually.

This was actually a debate among the earlier church. Why do you believe that Scripture is normally spiritual?

 

[JonC]

The lost, or unrepentant , are spiritually dead.

Luk 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

We are quickened in Christ from being dead

Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Did you consider the passage may simply be saying these people were lost (that they had not spiritual life as they were dead in their trespasses and sin) rather than indicating one can die spiritually?

 

[agedman]

The lost, or unrepentant , are spiritually dead.

Luk 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

What word is used for "dead"? Does it in any manner suggest "spiritually dead?"

We are quickened in Christ from being dead

Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The same word is used for "dead" as used in Luke 9:60.

You will need to show that the word at least suggests "spiritually dead" for the passage to carry that meaning.

 

[Reformed]

In Ephesians 2:1 Paul reminds the Ephesians that prior to their conversion they were "dead in their trespasses and sins". The word for "dead" is νεκρος (nekros). It means physically dead, as in a corpse. While the word does not mean the state of death τηανατος (thanatos), it is not too much of a stretch to make the natural connection. If the spiritual condition of the Ephesians, prior to their conversion, was dead as in a corpse, they were de facto spiritually dead; alive physically but dead spiritually. The actual phrase "spiritually dead" does not need to be in the Bible for the concept to be true. One just needs to connect-the-dots to understand it, just as one does when accepting the Trinity as biblical.

 

[agedman]

In Ephesians 2:1 Paul reminds the Ephesians that prior to their conversion they were "dead in their trespasses and sins". The word for "dead" is νεκρος (nekros). It means physically dead, as in a corpse. While the word does not mean the state of death τηανατος (thanatos), it is not too much of a stretch to make the natural connection. If the spiritual condition of the Ephesians, prior to their conversion, was dead as in a corpse, they were de facto spiritually dead; alive physically but dead spiritually. The actual phrase "spiritually dead" does not need to be in the Bible for the concept to be true. One just needs to connect-the-dots to understand it, just as one does when accepting the Trinity as biblical.

However, "spiritually dead" is not used, it isn't even alluded. It is assumed using your type of thinking.

However, if one refrains from such using the most conservative approach, then the statement of Rev. "This is the second death" is also able to be understood with validity.

One does not die, spiritually, physically, and then the lake of fire being called the second death.

That is one too many deaths.

Certainly, Ephesians 2 Paul reminds the Ephesians that they were (in the past) dead for they were but corpses, "condemned already." They were bound to the death of the body and no hope of resurrection in life. However, were now alive in Christ. For Christ is the life and the resurrection from being physically dead. For the believer passes from this life into the presence of the Lord. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord."

Paul is careful to state in 1 Corinthians that he could not address them as spiritual, but as "men of the flesh." He didn't use dead, for he surely knew they were indeed already alive in Christ, under no condemnation, and would pass from this life to the presence of Christ. That when the earthy was finished the believer was clothed in that of eternal.

Does the Scripture ever align the two words (Spiritual and dead) in the context of one being "spiritually dead?" Not so far as this thread has discovered. Perhaps it is as some other things that is purely a human generated concept in which the Scriptures have yet to be shown in this thread as being valid.

Perhaps, someone will actually find some passage yet to be discovered in which the words "spiritual dead" actually occur or the word "dead" is defined in the original language as indicating the "spiritual."

 

[percho]

I believe the following:

מת muth to-die תָּ מוּת thmuth you-shall-die ; from Genesis 2:17 means >

At the moment they sinned they were dead in trespass and sin.

Adam dying 730 years later, was dead.

The wages of the very first sin he committed was paid to him 730 years later when he died.

Life or death.

 

[percho]

I believe Christ died in Adam. For three days and three nights he was just as dead as Adam is.

However, ὁ δὲ θεὸς ἤγειρεν αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν Acts 13:30
------------- and God did raise him out of the dead,

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1

In Adam
In Christ

 

[Reformed]

However, "spiritually dead" is not used, it isn't even alluded. It is assumed using your type of thinking.

I think it is evident in the text. The Reformers and Puritans posited as much, so I am in good company with my "type of thinking".

Certainly, Ephesians 2 Paul reminds the Ephesians that they were (in the past) dead for they were but corpses, "condemned already." They were bound to the death of the body and no hope of resurrection in life.

That is my point. I was referring to the Ephesian believers prior spiritual condition, i.e. before they were converted. Prior to becoming believers, they were dead, spiritually speaking. I certainly am not referring to believers as being spiritually dead. But they were not just "bound to the death of the body", they were also dead in the inner man (spiritually) which is the point of Ephesians 2:1. It is the Synergist position that must insist the sinner is not spiritually dead but rather spiritually sick. Why? Because Synergism needs the sinner to believe prior to regeneration and that is an impossibility if the sinner is dead spiritually.

Does the Scripture ever align the two words (Spiritual and dead) in the context of one being "spiritually dead?" Not so far as this thread has discovered.

We simply disagree and that is fine.

 

[Iconoclast]

What word is used for "dead"? Does it in any manner suggest "spiritually dead?"



The same word is used for "dead" as used in Luke 9:60.

You will need to show that the word at least suggests "spiritually dead" for the passage to carry that meaning.

Who is supposed to bury the dead I. Lk9.....Zombies????
If it is not spiritually dead people....zombies are all that is left.

 

[agedman]

Who is supposed to bury the dead I. Lk9.....Zombies????
If it is not spiritually dead people....zombies are all that is left.

Did not the Christ say, "Let the dead (nekros - corpse) bury the dead (nekros - corpse)" and in that statement use the definition of nekros which means "subject to death?"

Those who are subject to death, are the subjects of dead, and conformed to what is dead.

In what manner is the Lord separating out the "spiritually dead" from the already condemned dead?

None.

The Doctrines of Grace actually does not teach that one is alive in any estate that is Spiritual, and the Scriptures make that statement time and again by using terms that mean one is determined as a corpse, or being subject condemned already to death and are considered as dead.

Therefore, there is no alive yet spiritually dead. One is either alive in Christ or dead as a corpse as Christ used in Luke 9:60

 

[loDebar]

What word is used for "dead"? Does it in any manner suggest "spiritually dead?"



The same word is used for "dead" as used in Luke 9:60.

You will need to show that the word at least suggests "spiritually dead" for the passage to carry that meaning.

nekros may mean spiritual dead

1. properly
   1. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
      
      
   2. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
      
      
   3. destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2. metaph.
   
   1. spiritually dead
      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
         
         
      2. inactive as respects doing right
   2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

It is not a translation issue