In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

J.D. · Jan 24, 2007

Bottom line: "Sealed", and "Born", do not mean the same thing!

webdog · Jan 24, 2007

The understanding is not there to hear...to believe..until..The new birth comes. right?
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Not according to Pastor Larry.

Jarthur001 · Jan 25, 2007

ooops two post

Please see below.

Jarthur001 · Jan 25, 2007

examiningcalvinism said:

You wrote: "And...who does the chosing to place the person "in Christ?"

We're going in circles. See Eph 1:13: hears, believes, sealed.

In terms of Calvin, he believes that "faith" is the product of regeneration in Christ. Hence, he stumbles over Romans 10:17 which says that faith comes from the hearing of the word of Christ. I've already listed above why regeneration in Christ, prior to being sealed in Christ, is a dysfunctional mess.
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Hello examining...

Lets take a close look at what you typed above.

Calvinism:
Step 1) Born again in Christ <<<----There you go. Lets change this to regeneration
Step 2) Hears Gospel
Step 3) Believes Gospel
Step 4) Sealed in Christ

Step 1 and Step 4 shows just how disfunctional Calvinism is.
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Just as the nature birth, life comes before the birth. Sorry, but I will be a bit lazy this morning and cut and past this.

What does it mean to be born again?
By Wayne A. Grudem

Regeneration Is Totally a Work of God

In some of the elements of the application of redemption that we discuss in subsequent chapters, we play an active part (this is true, for example, of conversion, sanctification and perseverance). But in the work of regeneration, we play no active role at all. It is instead totally a work of God. We see this, for example, when John talks about those to whom Christ gave power to become children of God -- they "were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). Here john specifies that children of God are those who are "born ...of God" and our human will ("the will of man") does not bring about this kind of birth.

The fact that we are passive in regeneration is also evident when Scripture refers to it as being "born" or "born again" (cf. James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3; John 3:3-8). We did not choose to be made physically alive and we did not choose to be born -- it is something that happened to us; similarly, these analogies in Scripture suggest that we are entirely passive in regeneration.

This sovereign work of God in regeneration was also predicted in the prophesy of Ezekiel. Through him God promised a time in the future when he would give new spiritual to his people:

A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. (Ezek 36:26-27)

Which member of the Trinity is the one who causes regeneration? When Jesus speaks of being "born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), he indicates that it is especially God the Holy Spirit who produces regeneration. But other verses also indicate the involvement of God the Father in regeneration: Paul specifies that it is God who “made us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:5; cf. Col 2:13). And James says that it is the "father of lights “who gave us new birth: "Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures" (James 1:17-18). Finally, Peter says that God "according to his abundant mercy has given us new birth ...through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3, author's translation). We can conclude that both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit bring about regeneration.

What is the connection between effective calling and regeneration? As we will see later in this chapter, Scripture indicates that regeneration must come before we can respond to effective calling with saving faith. Therefore we can say that regeneration comes before the result of effective calling (our faith). But it is more difficult to specify the exact relationship in time between regeneration and the human proclamation of the gospel through which God works in effective calling. At least two passages suggest that God regenerates us at the same time as he speaks to us in effective calling. Peter says, "You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.... That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Peter 1:23, 35). And James says, "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth" (James 1:18 NIV). As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God the Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. These two things must have happened simultaneously as Peter was preaching the gospel to the household of Cornelius, for while he was still preaching "the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word' (Acts 10:44).

Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary, willing choice in responding to the gospel--a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into out hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain-- even though we respond voluntarily....(see Eph 2:1, 5; John 3:3, 7, 8; Col 2:13; 2 Cor 5:17)

In This Sense of "Regeneration," It Comes Before Saving Faith

Using the verses quoted above, we have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes "before" saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. As God addresses the effective call of the gospel to us, he regenerates us as we respond in faith and repentance to this call. So from our perspective it is hard to tell any difference in time, especially because regeneration is a spiritual work that we cannot perceive with our eyes or even understand with our minds. (Scriptural passages John 3:5; John 6:44, 65; Acts 16:14; Eph 2:4-5; Col 2:13)..

The idea that regeneration comes before saving faith is not always understood by evangelicals today. Sometimes people will even say something like, "If you believe in Christ as your Savior, then (after you believe) you will be born again." But Scripture itself never says anything like that. The new birth is viewed by Scripture as something that God does within us in order to enable us to believe.... if we are to use language that closely conforms to the actual wording of Scripture, it would be better to restrict the word "regeneration" to the instantaneous, initial work of God in which he imparts spiritual life to us.
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npetreley · Jan 25, 2007

Using the verses quoted above, we have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes "before" saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. As God addresses the effective call of the gospel to us, he regenerates us as we respond in faith and repentance to this call. So from our perspective it is hard to tell any difference in time, especially because regeneration is a spiritual work that we cannot perceive with our eyes or even understand with our minds. (Scriptural passages John 3:5; John 6:44, 65; Acts 16:14; Eph 2:4-5; Col 2:13)..

The idea that regeneration comes before saving faith is not always understood by evangelicals today. Sometimes people will even say something like, "If you believe in Christ as your Savior, then (after you believe) you will be born again." But Scripture itself never says anything like that. The new birth is viewed by Scripture as something that God does within us in order to enable us to believe.... if we are to use language that closely conforms to the actual wording of Scripture, it would be better to restrict the word "regeneration" to the instantaneous, initial work of God in which he imparts spiritual life to us.
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Quoted for truth.

examiningcalvinism · Jan 26, 2007

JD

In your cited interpretation of Eph 1:4, I'm glad that it makes sense to you, but unfortunately, it is a fanciful "to be" election, and nothing more. I'll quote a portion of it: "being chosen they come to be in him." Sure it makes sense to you, but that's because you're a Calvinist and they're saying exactly what you WANT to hear! You have to insert "to be" into Ephesians 1:4 to make it teach Calvinism. Arminians will call you out on that 100 times out of 100.

As for Eph 1:13, it still doesn't address the root problem that Calvinists face.

As for JArthur: replacing regeneration with Born Again doesn't help your cause one bit, since BOTH new birth and regeneration are facets of what is in Christ alone, and you do not become sealed in Christ until after faith, as per Eph 1:13. Ultimately, your argument places one "in Christ" for regeneration BEFORE being sealed in Christ through faith (Eph 1:13), and good luck with that. In my explantion, I hammer that point home like Hank Aaron on a baseball.

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

examiningcalvinism said:

In your cited interpretation of Eph 1:4, I'm glad that it makes sense to you, but unfortunately, it is a fanciful "to be" election, and nothing more. I'll quote a portion of it: "being chosen they come to be in him." Sure it makes sense to you, but that's because you're a Calvinist and they're saying exactly what you WANT to hear! You have to insert "to be" into Ephesians 1:4 to make it teach Calvinism. Arminians will call you out on that 100 times out of 100.

As for Eph 1:13, it still doesn't address the root problem that Calvinists face.

As for JArthur: replacing regeneration with Born Again doesn't help your cause one bit, since BOTH new birth and regeneration are facets of what is in Christ alone, and you do not become sealed in Christ until after faith, as per Eph 1:13. Ultimately, your argument places one "in Christ" for regeneration BEFORE being sealed in Christ through faith (Eph 1:13), and good luck with that. In my explantion, I hammer that point home like Hank Aaron on a baseball.
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Arminians can and do call me may things. Its like water on a ducks back...you know? What I would like to see is an Arminian addess the verse and not dodge around them.

I have addressed 1:13

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
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43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
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Who places the believer in Christ?

1Cr 1:27-29
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
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"But Of Him" The greek word here is 'ek" as you may know. It is the the point whence action or motion proceeds. The word "in" from the phrase "in Christ" that you build your doctrine on is a static preposition. There is no action or movement in "ev". What I mean is...the "of Him" is the action that places us "in Him. cool huh?

examiningcalvinism · Jan 26, 2007

JArthur

The Holy Spirit takes "believers" and seals them "in Christ." (Eph 1:13)

You are saying that the Holy Spirit takes UNbelievers and preemptively places them "in Christ" (for regeneration and new birth in order to access the vital "new heart"), prior to being sealed in Christ, and Arminianism charges you of violating the order. At John 1:12-13, you are taking what the new birth is "of" and using that to argue what we are born again BECAUSE of. "Because" is inserted at John 1:13, "to be" is inserted at Eph 1:4, when will it ever end?

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Paul/Eph1_13.html

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

see below....

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

below as on the next page..

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

ooops...see below

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

examiningcalvinism said:

The Holy Spirit places "the believer" "in Christ" through a sealing. (Eph 1:13) It's not that you cannot see this, but that you refuse to allow yourself to see the problem.

You are placing UNbelievers "in Christ" (for regeneration and new birth) before they are sealed in Christ. I'm awaiting for you to finally TOUCH that point.
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I place no one "in Christ". But God does.

Look...

Where is your verse....

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
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After they heard......

John says the unbliever does not hear......

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
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What changes from the non hearing...to the hearing in order that they may believe????? Do you not have to be "of God" to hear? BTW...of is the greek word " ek".

examiningcalvinism · Jan 26, 2007

JArthur

I've already addressed John 8. Before I repeat myself, let me try one last time with Eph 1:13: How can you be "in Christ" (for preemptive regeneration) BEFORE being sealed in Christ? When you answer that, then I will give you the courtesy of examining another verse. Sorry to be so stern, but you are just as frustrated as I am. The only answer that I can think of, for your side of the argument, is to say that the sealing does NOT place one in Christ, but is merely just a sealing of the person who is ALREADY in Christ (preemptively). If that is your argument, then at least say so.

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

well....as all can see...my posting is not right.

See below.

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

examiningcalvinism said:

The Holy Spirit takes "believers" and seals them "in Christ." (Eph 1:13)

You are saying that the Holy Spirit takes UNbelievers and preemptively places them "in Christ" (for regeneration and new birth in order to access the vital "new heart"), prior to being sealed in Christ, and Arminianism charges you of violating the order. At John 1:12-13, you are taking what the new birth is "of" and using that to argue what we are born again BECAUSE of. "Because" is inserted at John 1:13, "to be" is inserted at Eph 1:4, when will it ever end?

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Paul/Eph1_13.html
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Your living in a dream land, if you only post on your site half of what is said.

What are you hiding from? If you are here to learn about Calvinism, as you keep claiming, then why not quote the whole of my statements on your silly site and not one liners? This shows just how you misuse Calvins quotes also. One can read my post on this thread, and click to show how you only reply to one line on your site. I mean I could do this to you my friend. But who would I be fooling? All I would be fooling is myself.

BTW...I am a writer by trade as well as a artist. What I post on this site belongs to "baptistboard.com" and you cannot use it unless you have writen statement from "baptistboard.com". You can use snips from it, as long as you state where it comes from. It is my guess you have done this all over the web, and have violated copy laws. I don't care myself if you qoute me, for I never post my "writings" on here. They are owned by my publisher. But..you may want to check with baptistboard.com to see if you have broken laws. Until then, please at least say where you got your quotes. To be fair, you should really place a link back to this BB in order that your readers can see the full story and also see how you dodge verses.

Its your site and you have your own game you must play. But if you care for the truth then you will follow it and post all of Calvin if that is who you are addressing, and all of me, if this is who you are addressing. Or, you can mislead as you have shown you like to do, and play a little game in your own mine.

examiningcalvinism · Jan 26, 2007

James Arthur

You wrote: "Your living in a dream land, if you only post on your site half of what is said."

What kind of garbage is that?

Jarthur001 · Jan 26, 2007

examiningcalvinism said:

I've already addressed John 8. Before I repeat myself, let me try one last time with Eph 1:13: How can you be "in Christ" (for preemptive regeneration) BEFORE being sealed in Christ? When you answer that, then I will give you the courtesy of examining another verse. Sorry to be so stern, but you are just as frustrated as I am. The only answer that I can think of, for your side of the argument, is to say that the sealing does NOT place one in Christ, but is merely just a sealing of the person who is ALREADY in Christ (preemptively). If that is your argument, then at least say so.
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God elects us to salvation. He places us in the Light of the truth. The word "in" that you find in the phrase "in Christ" means "though" or "by". We can read it..."by Christ" as shown before by me and others and you would not change the context.

Christ said...I Am the way the truth and the light. It is when we are in the light of the truth and we have understanding, at this point we believe and are saved. All are saved though faith, ....faith comes by hearing....one must be alive to hear.

Now...please show me where you addressed John 8.

examiningcalvinism · Jan 26, 2007

JA

You wouldn't respond to Eph 1:13, so I offered a response FOR you. Not only did you not address it, but you come back with this.... ????

examiningcalvinism · Jan 26, 2007

John 8

found in this post: 01-24-2007, 11:00 PM

examiningcalvinism · Jan 26, 2007

JA

You wrote that I "dodge verses" ??? I think that you've lost it completely.

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