In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

Hello examiningcalvinism,

Sorry for taking so long. I'm doing work at the same time. But...its work for myself.

Not added to the truth....Therefore if any man be in Christ, -------->>>>(((((he is a new creature)))))))): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. So..as it turns out "in Christ" does mean to be saved. right? That would be a yes.

What does holy mean? Check out verse 1 for the answer.

Yes...Only the elect are sealed...holy/saint...and changed into His image.

Foreknowing means more then just knowing about someone. God foreknow us, in that He chose us.

1st, I have shown that you misquoted a few of those. But that is beside the point. Your whole doctrine is based on this one phrase. You always quote it, as if it changes something. This is only a phrase that says we are saved. You know this, and you admited it. But maybe if we go to other passage you will see.

Please read the rest of the chapter.

Next...and I know you do not like this one, but the fact is...election is to salvation.

2 Thess 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom. 11:7..."What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

Now read this to get the full picture...

Isaiah 43

That is just pushing your phrase some more. Sorry...it changes nothing. Election is by God..TO salvation. In Christ means saved....so chosen in Christ is the same as saying choosen for salvation. Other wise...the chosing is not needed. This is like saying God only choses you....after you choose Him. Bad doctrine.


I'm not talk about other writer unless I have read them. Most of the time others are taken out of context.

 

Sure Reformed bring me back into this discussion. :tongue3:
However, I'm about to enter this discussion but not yet... I'm still watching for him to answer a couple of previous post.

However, I thought I could be aggressively accertive - But Wow!

 

2 Thes 2: 9. {that is,} the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

( A decision was made and they rejected the truth. It is on the basis of “not receiving the truth” that “deluding influence” is sent by God, next verse. They have already made a choice to reject or not believe and it follows that they will continue. Again in verse 12 Paul restated the basis for the sending of the deluding influence, their unbelief. The reverse is true of the ones that freely believe. They are chosen for salvation on the basis of or through the work of the Spirit and man’s faith. It takes both. The Spirit sanctifies those that have faith in the truth. Notice verse 14. It further confirms that calling is through the gospel. All are called but few are chosen. The chosen are the ones that believe freely. Chosen is a term that is only applicable to the ones who believe. They are chosen because they believe not believe because they are chosen. How is one chosen? Two things in verse 13: (1) Sanctification by the Spirit and (2) faith in the truth. One by itself is not sufficient or 2 by itself is not sufficient either. But, the spirit will do the sanctifying if a person freely believes “has faith in the truth”. )


11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.
16. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17. comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

For me it is simple. All the language surrounding the two groups is on the basis of belief or un-belief. Everything in these verses is predicated on this one thing.

 

You beat me to the punch Gordon. I noted to that James highlighted only a portion of that verse concerning "...to salvation...' (which no one disagrees with) but neglected to continue hightlighting that which state how that choice TO salvation was established... THROUGH the cleanings of the Spirit and Belief in the Word. We are 'chosen' IN CHRIST to salvation THROUGH...the clensing of the Spirit...and belief in the Word.

The whole IN CHRIST thing I believe has taken on a life of it own in this thread.
This passage is specific that those chosen ARE in Christ - But not by the Calvinistic election definition of God choosing some and passing over others (or reprobation which ever floats the boat) but God knew us In Chrst because of the work He would do towards us and our belief towards Him. No man will seek out God, unless God first seek out man. Or as scripture states it: no man comes unto me unless the Father draw him.

But again even more simply put:
We are chosen To salvation by the means of the Spirit and faith.

 

Ok, this is pretty much - gobboldy gook to me.

I hold to the "IN CHRIST" bit, but there are some misguided notions in here.

1. Scriptures state infatically that we are "IN" Christ and not "IN union" with Christ. One is speaking of salvation of whom we have received it, and the other places us at 'one with Christ" or "in Union with Christ" BEFORE salvation occurs. This is absolutely impossible. You have taken Mr. Rogers quote beyond it's intended meaning to support what he never espoused. We were never in union with God but sinners under His wrath.

2. It is not a foreknowledge of 'a people' - There is NO verse that is discriptive in such a way. Jesus Knows His sheep and calls them by NAME. The word 'them' in that verse in conjuction with 'name' tells us that without question He know all the individuals who are his and not some set/subset grouping. Just for 1 example. I have more. If you are speaking of Him knowing those of His church as a whole then please say so.

3. You have divided youself (at least in your OP) of God choosing a people to God forknowing individuals... Maybe you need to clarify better. Be careful also in using 'individual' and 'corporate' as these can become mistconstrued easily. For if we are corporately predestined then you lose all personal responsiblity toward you own holy and righteous walk as it is based on the whole corporate group to be holy. So mush for rewards and discipline. Johnny did bad EVERYONE gets punished.

that is enough for now, I guess. You are doing pretty good fielding comment though as they come in rapid fire succession. :laugh: I would agree however it is best to deal with James on a point for point issue. Me and Him have done a full page or two responce to just one post and there will be 3 to 4 of them... Isn't that right James. We can get very long winded if we let ourselves and pages are no obsticle when multiple posting. Keep the faith James. :thumbs:

 

I think it was Dr. Elmer Towns that put me onto the "in Christ" understanding.

In the end as I understand it there are these basis issues between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist ( Some would say different flavors of Arminianism)

(1) The issue of weather or not God arbitrarily pick John and did not Pick Jane.

(2) This issue becomes severely contradictory in light of the desire of God. If God is not willing that any perish and that all come to repentance and then picks John and not Jane too there is a serious problem.

(3) Number 1 being based upon a false view that the depravity of man is of such nature that mankind can not respond to facts about who he is and what the consequences are. It simply miss uses the term "dead in trespasses and sins" not correctly applying it as separation vs. their re-rational concept of dead. Remembering that Adam and Eve actually talked to God in this state of being "dead in their sins and trespasses". Adam and Eve carried on a conversation with God.

(4) The false teaching that regeneration or resurrection from the dead of the deadness of man spiritually where by man is then infused with faith and thus enabled to believe is more than ridicules and non-scriptural. Believing faith is no where clearly, emphatically, and basically remotely taught in Scripture as being a special gift that is infused into a person after they are raised from the dead by regeneration whereby they will not respond to an arbitrary picking of God that they can not refuse or reject.

(5) God's holiness is at stake there in my thinking. If God desires all to be saved and has the power to do just that and if Calvinism's false position were true then God would be lying and His holiness breached. The only for God's desire and His Holiness to be consistent with His Sovereignty and Purpose is to understand that all men do have an equal opportunity in life to respond to The Good News.

(6) This is where the Absolute Knowledge of God comes in. In that Election is based upon Foreknowledge is undisputable. The reasonable person will except the clear definition of the word and stop trying to manipulate it to mean otherwise. Foreknowledge covers all angles. When dealing with mankind it is personal and factual that is an undisputed fact even though some will try to twist it two be one or the other. Mankind is God's creation and any reference to man is personal and reference to salvation is both personal and factual.

(7) The In Christ statements by Paul in Eph 1 and 2 are clinchers against the Calvinist doctrine as well. Our calling / Election is in Christ, not before or apart from Christ. To be in Christ is to be Elect, Chosen, etc. To be outside Christ prior to salvation is just separated for God by our trespasses and sins.

(8) In the mind of God, who has Absolute Knowledge, those whom He foresees / foreknows are appointed to heaven, Elected in Christ, etc. God can say this and He alone because He alone has Absolute Knowledge. All Prophecy is predicated on God’s Absolute Knowledge. If we take God’s ability away form Him and force Him to be Calvinist then His Holiness and Absolute Knowledge is damaged and God ceases to be God.

(9) Over and over again Jesus refers to faith as "their" "your" "his" faith. There is only one place the word faith is used as a Gift and it is in I Cor 12 and the gift there is call a spiritual gift of faith that is understood in context as given to only some of the body as God wills. No where is believing faith clearly, emphatically, stated as a special infused gift. The fact that man is in the image of God means that man posses this fundamental ability on the basis that he is in the image of God. If God's image is dead as they want you to believe then we cease to live at all. That is not the case. The faith you exercise all day long is the same capability needed to believe in Christ. Your allegiance changes and you stop looking in faith to you and others and transfer it to Grace, the Work of God, Christ.

 

Gordon and all you other Non-Cals out there like me. Please, please, please I beg you - Stop using this verse to explain Gods desire toward the world. You make all of us Non-Cals look completely inept when you use it.
Look at it:

It is refering to 'us' believers and not the world to come to Faith. He is patiently waiting for believers. He knows them all and when they are to come and He is patiently waiting of their conversion He desires to give in fulfilment of His promise.

As (hopefully) you can see this verse in the context it was written speaks of Gods desire toward those whom He will save. In other words He will wait until the fullness of His salvation to all those who will believe is completed. Though He would do it (come quickly) even now the only reason He doesn't is so ALL may come in and not cut short any that He foreknew.

There are many other verse that discribe properly God benevolence toward the world. Just NOT that one! I know it sounds good but try looking at the rest of it.

Here is a good one:

or even this one:

The whole world in this dictates with in context and grammer that it refers to ALL mankind.

And there are still others, so please stop using that verses about God patiently enduring till all have come to Him.

 

Much of what was posted was just a bias statement with no support. I'll not address it.
However, if being this is key to your side, lets dig in.

"In Christ" What does it mean? I fail to see where it changes any thing.

Lets limit this to one blessing found in Eph 1. All others would apply the same. Holy has been talked about before, so lets address it.

Your Saying God choose us, after we are "in Christ" to be set apart.

I chose to be saved. To me, this sets me apart from those that are not saved. For if freewill is right, it is I that chooses ...so then I choose to be set apart from those who are in the world...set apart into Christ. It would be my chooseing. Your in the world...or your in Christ.

Now...Your saying after I choose to be set apart to salvation, ..and I am In Christ...that God elects us to be set apart. I'm I following you right?

 

9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The word "pantas" means all men in verse 9. The fact that it looks to repentance as well should be sufficient contextual data to explain that the reach is all mankind and specifically expressed so to the present audience, but applicable to all as it states.

If you force your position then you must conclude that the audience is lost or that some are lost.

If you take a position that any of the audience is lost then your view fails. It can't be both ways. That, however, is not contextual regardless, but is a point of emphasis that you are over looking some details.

So my kind return answer to you is re-think the passage in light of it context. The context supports my view 100 percent.

This is not any different form a pastor addressing the local church and in the address making statements that concern all man kind. This is what Peter did. The language and grammar support my position and the context is my position, which is clear

 

The text supports clearly that these verses address all of mankind. I will be more than glad later today to do a full blown Greek Exegesis of the text if I must. It really is not necessary because the English translations are sufficient.

The NASV translates it better than the KJV, The NKJV and the NIV

(1) The basic permits of Calvinism is that man is so dead he can not decide to believe.

(2) So I understand why you have a hard time accepting my position. That is OK

(3) Words are means to conveying understanding. You have decided to use the word "choose" to convey the word trust or believe or have faith. That is fine with me as long as we are addressing the same issue.

(4) Here once again is my position. "Man can make a free choice to trust in Christ" He is not so tainted or dead in sin and trespasses that he can not respond to the truth when He hears it. When I heard the Gospel I chose, decided, willfully turned to, accepted the truth, and agreed with God about what He said about me and what was necessary from me to be saved. repent and believe in His work not mine, yours or Calvin’s, or any Calvinist for that matter.

Let me say this I don’t say what I say to convince you of anything. You are set in your ways. I am set in my ways. I accept you as you are and I do understand your thinking. I simply disagree. You process things differently.

If we could in a simple way state what we believe. Can you make short clear well defined statements of what you believe without quoting anyone? Can you actuate in simple terms what you believe?

I can:

God knew in all eternity before He created - all that would believe and on that basis provides a witness for them regardless of where they are, when they have lived, are living or will live.

See how simple it is.

Can you do that?

 

Gordon, you and several others, maybe examiningcalvinism also, hold to God electing due to what you call forknowledge or foresight. If God elects people to salvation due to what He forsaw they would do... then those who He did not forsee have absolutely no chance of salvation. Do you not see that your position is no different than the reformed position? You slam calvinism and say that God sends some to heaven and some to hell......... well if He bases salvation on foresight..... He does the same thing!

If men are going to do what God foresees them doing....... then those He did not see repenting and believeing are lost as can be, and have NO chance to be saved. Grace and peace.

 

No: God foresees all decisions and elects on that basis in simple words

God did not pick one out of many because all would not period.

Not all will but some will believe and not because they are regenerated first so they can believe. No they believe and are then regenerated.

That really is in the simplest form our difference.

Is man so depraved he has no ability to believe in Jesus or is it the other way. Those are the two main points put in simple language.

We both accept that the saved are the Elect. This is not an issue. It is how are they elect.

Simply put we disagree on the premise that God either arbitrarily picket some because they would not be saved or God picked them because they did believe freely.

 

I would agree

 

IMO the premise is too weird for me to read all the replies, so I apologize if anyone has already asked this.

Is anyone who is saved not in Christ? If so, then please tell me where I can find that passage. If not, then what's the point?