Featured "In Christ" What does it mean and How?

That is a good question. I think a fair answer is that God's revealed will covers a great spectrum of things. Probably no child of God is walking with God in every spectrum. For example, there are children of God within the Great Whore (Rev. 18:4) and yet that does not mean they are outside of God's will in all other areas of life. There are no doubt paedobaptists who are genuinely saved and with regard to personal sanctification may be walking closer to God than you or I. In the area of church truth they are obviously not walking with God with regard to the ordinances or the nature of a NT church.

Again, personal worship is quite different than public worship as public worship requires a completely additional spectrum.

 

I need you to be more specific, because if that is all you meant then we have no differences as my position has been water baptism is being explicitly addressed in these passages along with its symbolism of salvation which is being applied to the context. The interpretations I have provided of Romans 6 clearly reveal that.

What I need to know from your perspective is do you believe the term "baptized" and "baptism" are NOT merely "shorthand" for salvation truths, but the use of that term in a text is directly addressing the ordinance of water baptism itself ALONG WITH its implications and applications? That is my view!

I would still like you or someone to address the post above that I have asked to be addressed as it was in response to your post.

 

THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM OF THE FALL

I don't think the position of salvation that Jon embraces is sufficient to deal with the fundamental problem of the fall. It is one thing to say Old Testament saints were "saved" but it quite another thing to define what that means in their own lifetime if you hold to Jon's view that Cross benefits are not applied in their life time. On the other hand, if he admits SOME were applied in their own life time then his whole argument about needing to wait to the cross breaks down completely.

However, the greatest problem is the problem of the fall itself. All "in Adam" are "in the flesh" and spiritually SEPARATED from God which IS spiritual DEATH. Is Jon going to define spiritual death one way before the cross and another way after the cross? Are they spiritually "dead" in trespasses and sins differently than post-cross sinners? Can those "in the flesh" before the cross please God, while we are inferior to them after the cross and therefore those "in the flesh" after the cross cannot please God (Rom. 8:8-9)? Isn't the first aspect to pleasing God - faith (Heb. 11:6)?

Does not the first element in being "saved" is being "saved" from being "in the flesh" meaning in spiritual separation, thus spiritual death? How can spiritual separation be resolved apart from being brought into spiritual union with God? How can anyone dead and depraved in sin be "saved" in any sense if they are not also first made spiritually alive or in spiritual union with God who is life, light, holiness and love?

These are the very fundamentals of what "saved" MUST mean with regard to the fall,with regard to spiritual separation, or spiritual death as anyone still in that state cannot be said to be "saved" at all!

Furthermore, how can anyone be called "saved" if they are still SPIRITUALLY OUTSIDE of "Christ" since all spiritual blessings of salvation are found only "in Christ."???

Either the view Jon embraces is wrong or those before the cross remained "in the flesh" in the state of spiritual death and separation from God both in life and in death and therefore were not "saved" in any meaningful sense in their lifetime at all or in their death as their departed spirit remained in a state of spiritual separation from God as in their bodies in life.

However, if Jon moves to my position of salvation, then he must admit that the baptism in the Spirit and the church have no part of being spiritually "in Christ" since they are not only time fixed but doctrinally fixed as 4000 years too late to be included in salvation.

 

Salvation gets you INTO heaven but proper and acceptable service determines present spiritual growth, blessings and eternal rewards, eternal positions and eternal usefulness IN heaven.

So salvation is occurs in a MOMENT but service is about ALL YOUR LIFE TIME and your future IN heaven.

 

So, when the term "baptized" or "baptism" is used in these passage water baptism is the subject ALONG WITH its symbolic implications?

Therefore, where you and I disagree is what specific applications of salvation are being expressed in these texts and what is the true nature of salvation with regard to the fall of man before and after the cross especially with regard to the baptism in the Spirit and the church (as you conceive it apart from the majority use of the term church). Also, where we disagree is the symbolic implications of baptism with regard to putting on Christ and the metaphorical implications of being a metaphorical "member" in a metaphorical "body of Christ."

 

I agree with Jon here. The norm of the New Testament is salvation, baptism, church membership and that is not only what we see in precept (Mt. 28:19-20) as illustrated by example (Acts 2:40-41) but in the consistent practice of Paul in every city he witnessed. His letters were written to churches or members of churches. The historical "we...us....ye...you" is not the Post-apostolic divisions of believers in various denominations but to those who are in churches of like faith and order.

However, that does not mean everything addressed to church members have no application outside of church membership, BECAUSE baptism and church membership do not regenerate or justify anyone and therefore, that leaves room for genuine saints to be deceived and led outside the norm (Acts 20:29-30; Rev. 18:4)