OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
You got the first part of your post#53 correct!
You got the first part of your post#53 correct!
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Jarthur001
I believe you misquoted someone in your post #59.
I believe you misquoted someone in your post #59.
Well, I think all of post #53 was correct. You believe a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit so that they can believe, when the Scriptures show a person first believes, then receives the Holy Spirit and is regenerated.
I will show the same scriptures again. :sleep:
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Now in John 7:39 the scriptures show that a person first believes, and then receives the Holy Spirit.
And in Gal 3:2 it shows that a person receives the Spirit by the hearing of faith.
And as I have showed many times, faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
So, first a person must hear the word of God and believe it. Then upon believeing on Jesus they receive the Holy Spirit.
Now I do believe the Holy Spirit has an influence on a man before he is saved. I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to a man's heart and convicts him of sin and his need for Christ. I do not believe the Holy Spirit compels a man to believe, I believe a man must believe on Christ of his own free will. But I believe a person can resist this calling or drawing of the Holy Spirit.
Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Calvinism teaches that God's grace is irresistable when the scriptures clearly say otherwise.
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Here is another verse that shows how I personally see salvation.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Jesus through the Holy Spirit knocks on the door of every man's heart. He also calls with his voice (scripture) and makes it known that he wishes to come in. He does not break the door down or force it open, but patiently knocks. But it is up to you whether you will invite him in. He cannot save you while he is outside, you must allow him to come in. You can pretend you do not hear the knock, although you know you do. You can hope that he will tire of knocking and go away. You can even shout and tell him to go away and leave you alone. The decision is yours to make, the door is yours. He is knocking at your door, you are not knocking at his. But if you do want Jesus, if you do love him, you can open the door. And if you do, Jesus promises to come in and sup with you, and you with him.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Jesus through the Holy Spirit knocks on the door of every man's heart. He also calls with his voice (scripture) and makes it known that he wishes to come in. He does not break the door down or force it open, but patiently knocks. But it is up to you whether you will invite him in. He cannot save you while he is outside, you must allow him to come in. You can pretend you do not hear the knock, although you know you do. You can hope that he will tire of knocking and go away. You can even shout and tell him to go away and leave you alone. The decision is yours to make, the door is yours. He is knocking at your door, you are not knocking at his. But if you do want Jesus, if you do love him, you can open the door. And if you do, Jesus promises to come in and sup with you, and you with him.
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Holy Spirit was never sent.
Jesus said "If the miracles....had been performed....they would have repented..."
God, according to His will, chose not to send someone to those cities to do miracles so that the people would repent.
God withheld His Spirit instead, and they died in their sins.
peace to youraying:
One of the things Calvinist don't take into consideration is the fact that OT people never had a "Comforter/Holy Ghost" to call/draw them to repentance,
God sent "prophets" who spoke for him and the people had a "CHOICE" to believe the prophets/God or reject both prophets/God.
Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
And this "Comforter/Holy Ghost" will be "taken out of the way" prior to the trib starting and Israel/world will again be under the "law and prophet" system. (two witnesses)
Where will that leave this doctrine that only the "Comforter/Holy Ghost" can draw people to God??
The "TRINITY" explain much more than just "GOD".
Jarthur001
Active Member
ok....what was it?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Winman...please read these verses. Most of them you just pull out of context.
Jarthur001
Active Member
You may want to take note on this.
Calvinist believe the gospel call goes out to all men.
Calvinist teach man will resist.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is possibly the most misused passage in the Bible, and you did it once again.
How is it misused?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The letter to the seven churches concludes with a promise to the few who believe.
Revelation 3:20-22, KJV
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus Christ follows His counsel to the true believers at Laodicea and all churches, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, with the promise, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. This promise is only to the regenerate members of the churches. If they repent following chastening, rouse themselves from their false contentment or their sins, and return to their ‘first love’ then He will restore that fellowship that has been broken, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If they do not repent but continue in their sin then the judgment of God will come, even on the believer [Hebrews 10:29,30].
[Paraphrased from Hoeksema, Behold He Cometh, pages 146ff.]
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Well, sorry to disagree with Hoeksema but when Jesus said "any man" in Rev 3:20 I think he meant just that, "any man"
In Rev 3:13 Jesus said:
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
And guess what? I believe Jesus is speaking here to any man that is willing to hear. And that would include the deaf if they read the scriptures. He is not saying this information is for the churches only, he is telling us to listen to what he is telling the churches. Big difference.
And I also think the Holy Spirit knew exactly what he was saying in Rev 22:17 when he said "whosoever will"
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I don't have to explain verses like these away.
In Rev 3:13 Jesus said:
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
And guess what? I believe Jesus is speaking here to any man that is willing to hear. And that would include the deaf if they read the scriptures. He is not saying this information is for the churches only, he is telling us to listen to what he is telling the churches. Big difference.
And I also think the Holy Spirit knew exactly what he was saying in Rev 22:17 when he said "whosoever will"
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I don't have to explain verses like these away.
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Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
How do you reconcile the above with your interpretation of:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are of course just as entitled to be wrong as Hoeksema, perhaps more so. In any event you are wrong in your doctrine of salvation. Since you are apparently not a dispensationalist you are at least correct about the Church but i am not suer since I have not read just what you believe. And as Jim would say: Cheers
Incidentally the " He that hath an ear", the "him that heaareth", and the "whosoever will" are those chosen to Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. So hang in there and another hearty "Cheers" to you!
I don't really place myself in a group. I just read the Bible and pray for the Lord to help me understand it.
Several times I have presented Titus 2:11 and asked those who believe in Calvin to explain it.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Now, if Calvinism is true, then all men would be saved. But we know this is not the case. So could you explain your understanding of this verse?
And could you please show scripture to support your understanding and not the writings of a man?
Several times I have presented Titus 2:11 and asked those who believe in Calvin to explain it.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Now, if Calvinism is true, then all men would be saved. But we know this is not the case. So could you explain your understanding of this verse?
And could you please show scripture to support your understanding and not the writings of a man?
Jesus told Israel he would have converted/healed them "IF" they had not closed their eyes/ears/hearts to his words, even telling them to believe his works if they didn't believe his words,
Now you're claiming Jesus made an offer he couldn't have kept because Israel had not been "CHOSEN" by God.
Is Jesus and God at odds with each other over who they "WANT" to be saved????
Can't have it both ways, who's at fault, God or Israel, for them not being Chosen/converted/healed???
Jarthur001
Active Member
Context is king, other wise you can have the Bible say whatever you wish.
Who was this text toward?
Jarthur001
Active Member
context has a lot to do with it
And how can you reconcile this passage?
13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
Who is Jesus speaking to here? His disiples. And they were all believers except Judas. But Jesus asks them if they had hardened their heart. He also points out that they have eyes, but asks if they are blind. He points out they have ears, and asks if they are deaf.
Now, this is a big problem for your belief, because you believe God hardens the hearts of the unsaved, and causes them to be blind and deaf as well. But we know that all of Jesus's disciples were saved except Judas. And note that Jesus asked if they had hardened their own heart.
When Jesus said, "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear" he was speaking to all men. And Jesus was commanding them to hear, so that was his will. But a man must be willing to hear.
Until you get past this false teaching that a man does not have his own voluntary will (which I have showed from scripture), you will never understand
that Jesus was offering salvation to all men.
13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
Who is Jesus speaking to here? His disiples. And they were all believers except Judas. But Jesus asks them if they had hardened their heart. He also points out that they have eyes, but asks if they are blind. He points out they have ears, and asks if they are deaf.
Now, this is a big problem for your belief, because you believe God hardens the hearts of the unsaved, and causes them to be blind and deaf as well. But we know that all of Jesus's disciples were saved except Judas. And note that Jesus asked if they had hardened their own heart.
When Jesus said, "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear" he was speaking to all men. And Jesus was commanding them to hear, so that was his will. But a man must be willing to hear.
Until you get past this false teaching that a man does not have his own voluntary will (which I have showed from scripture), you will never understand
that Jesus was offering salvation to all men.