OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Amy
That Scripture was posted in response to a post by winman who said that all were called.
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Amy
That Scripture was posted in response to a post by winman who said that all were called.
Old Regular
If I understand you, you want me to comment on the last verse of the passage Matt 22:14. For many are called, but few are chosen.
OK, I'll try, and hopefully it will be easy to understand.
To understand the word "many" in verse 14, you have to go back to verses 9 and 10.
Matt 22: 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
OK, in verse 9 the king (God) told his servants to go into the highways and as many as ye shall find, BID.
So, that is very simple and straightforward to understand. ANY person they were to run into or encounter they were to invite to the wedding. EVERYONE was invited. And I also get the sense that they were to make a diligent search, not just walk down the road and hope they ran into somebody. The king wanted the wedding of his son well furnished with guests. He had made great preparations for this wedding.
And then in verse 10 it shows that they did this very thing. They brought in ALL that they found, or as many as they could find. And it even says they brought in both bad and good. So no-one was excluded from this invitation.
But in verses 11-13 we see a man who responded to the invitation. He came to the wedding feast. But he failed to wear a wedding garment which was required. I believe this garment refers to the righteousness that is imputed to all those that trust in Christ. Righteousness is often compared to a pure white robe or garment in scripture.
So, this would be like a person who comes to church. They participate, they sing hymns, they give an offering. You would think they were saved from appearances. But this person never came to Christ as a sinner for forgiveness. They were not washed clean by the blood of Jesus. They did not have the pure white robe of righteousness.
So, he did not belong and was cast out.
But finally, to answer your question, verse 14 says, "For many are called, but few are chosen".
Now, this one single verse destroys the doctrine of Irresistable Grace. It does. You can't get around it. If God calls a person, according to Calvinism, that person must respond and believe. It is impossible for them not. And notice it says,
many are CALLED
Nope, you can't wiggle around that. They are called by God. They are invited. They are bid. And if God's grace is irresistable, then they must come.
But now you have a problem. Because FEW are chosen.
OK, you have two types here, the "called" and the "chosen". But they cannot be the same, because many are called, but only few chosen.
So, this disproves Calvinism right there. You can be called of God, but not chosen.
This is not a problem for me. I believe Titus 2:11
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I believe God has called everyone. Everyone is invited to come to Jesus for forgiveness. But not everyone will be chosen. Only those who believe on Jesus will be chosen. Those who refuse to come as in verse 3, or those to busy to bother as in verse 5 will not be chosen. And someone who tries to fake their way in and pretend they are a believer when they are not as in verse 11 will not be chosen.
If I understand you, you want me to comment on the last verse of the passage Matt 22:14. For many are called, but few are chosen.
OK, I'll try, and hopefully it will be easy to understand.
To understand the word "many" in verse 14, you have to go back to verses 9 and 10.
Matt 22: 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
OK, in verse 9 the king (God) told his servants to go into the highways and as many as ye shall find, BID.
So, that is very simple and straightforward to understand. ANY person they were to run into or encounter they were to invite to the wedding. EVERYONE was invited. And I also get the sense that they were to make a diligent search, not just walk down the road and hope they ran into somebody. The king wanted the wedding of his son well furnished with guests. He had made great preparations for this wedding.
And then in verse 10 it shows that they did this very thing. They brought in ALL that they found, or as many as they could find. And it even says they brought in both bad and good. So no-one was excluded from this invitation.
But in verses 11-13 we see a man who responded to the invitation. He came to the wedding feast. But he failed to wear a wedding garment which was required. I believe this garment refers to the righteousness that is imputed to all those that trust in Christ. Righteousness is often compared to a pure white robe or garment in scripture.
So, this would be like a person who comes to church. They participate, they sing hymns, they give an offering. You would think they were saved from appearances. But this person never came to Christ as a sinner for forgiveness. They were not washed clean by the blood of Jesus. They did not have the pure white robe of righteousness.
So, he did not belong and was cast out.
But finally, to answer your question, verse 14 says, "For many are called, but few are chosen".
Now, this one single verse destroys the doctrine of Irresistable Grace. It does. You can't get around it. If God calls a person, according to Calvinism, that person must respond and believe. It is impossible for them not. And notice it says,
many are CALLED
Nope, you can't wiggle around that. They are called by God. They are invited. They are bid. And if God's grace is irresistable, then they must come.
But now you have a problem. Because FEW are chosen.
OK, you have two types here, the "called" and the "chosen". But they cannot be the same, because many are called, but only few chosen.
So, this disproves Calvinism right there. You can be called of God, but not chosen.
This is not a problem for me. I believe Titus 2:11
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I believe God has called everyone. Everyone is invited to come to Jesus for forgiveness. But not everyone will be chosen. Only those who believe on Jesus will be chosen. Those who refuse to come as in verse 3, or those to busy to bother as in verse 5 will not be chosen. And someone who tries to fake their way in and pretend they are a believer when they are not as in verse 11 will not be chosen.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You forget there is the Gospel Call and the Effectual Call. For those who are chosen by God the Father, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and given the Gift of Faith the Gospel Call becomes the Effectual Call.
Where is that found in the Bible? I would like to see the scriptures that teach this.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You might start by reading John 5, 6 and 10 and then move to Ephesians 1 and 2.
Oh no, I want you to show me the verses and explain how they teach these two different callings.
I go to great lengths to explain my view, I probably ramble on far too much. But I show scripture and I explain my personal understanding of the scriptures I present.
I don't think it's too much to ask to have you show the verses you believe teach this doctrine and explain them to me. And I am sure others will be interested as well.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Ok...and going by the story what happen?
The Effectual Call
Christ speaks directly to the dead with no go-between:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25
To the son of the widow of Nain He said,”Young man, I say unto thee, Arise”; to Jairus' daughter He said, “Damsel, I say unto thee, Arise.”
When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, “ he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.” Take note, He specifically called Lazarus by name, He didn't just say 'come forth'; every dead body in those tombs would have come alive had He done that.
His commandments to those that stood by were to “Take ye away the stone” and “Loose him, and let him go,” because he was 'bound hand and foot with grave-clothes'.
So it is with every child of God, “you did he make alive, when ye were dead “, and the function of the church is to remove those grave clothes, and to edify to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep. That's the real 'great commission' of the Church.
Christ speaks directly to the dead with no go-between:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25
To the son of the widow of Nain He said,”Young man, I say unto thee, Arise”; to Jairus' daughter He said, “Damsel, I say unto thee, Arise.”
When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, “ he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.” Take note, He specifically called Lazarus by name, He didn't just say 'come forth'; every dead body in those tombs would have come alive had He done that.
His commandments to those that stood by were to “Take ye away the stone” and “Loose him, and let him go,” because he was 'bound hand and foot with grave-clothes'.
So it is with every child of God, “you did he make alive, when ye were dead “, and the function of the church is to remove those grave clothes, and to edify to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep. That's the real 'great commission' of the Church.
Matt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
And this is what happened to the Jews as foretold by Jesus, the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 A.D.
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
And then in Acts we see the gospel offered to the Gentiles just as the parable shows.
How does this change the fact that Jesus says many are called, but few are chosen? According to Calvinists, a person cannot resist the grace of God and so all who are called must respond and believe. But this parable shows otherwise as do the verses I just showed.
Old Regular said there are two types of calling and has had several days to show the verses that teach this without an answer. I don't want to see the teachings of men, I want to see this in scripture.
Jarthur001
Active Member
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
Perhaps the most vivid example of the Gospel Call and the Effectual Call is the Parable of the Sower. Nothing I could say would convince you if this Scripture doesn't.
Matt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
How does this prove Calvinism? The word was sown to all. If the doctrine of Irresistable Grace is true, then all would be saved. But they are not.
Why would God sow the word to those he has chosen to be lost?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I never try to prove Calvinism and you obviously don't understand the Doctrines of Grace [or The Sovereignty of God in Salvation]. I gave you a number of chapters that would be helpful: John 6 & 10; Ephesians 1 & 2. Of course you could start with Genesis 1.
God did not choose any to be lost. All mankind was lost. God through His limitless Grace chose some out of the lost mass of mankind to Salvation in Jesus Christ.
Please note that I said:
You obviously don't understand the Parable of the Sower.
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Baloney
You didn't explain a thing.
If God could choose some to be saved, then he could choose all to be saved. So, if some remained lost, it was because God made that choice. And in the parable of the sower, the seed (God's Word) was sown to all.
What you fail to see is that the difference was with the hearer.
The first group is described as the way side. This ground is not plowed and is walked upon. A seed cannot penetrate this ground and so lies on the surface where the birds come and take it away.
The second group was compared to shallow earth (a rock in Luke) that had no depth or moisture. These fell away when persecution arose.
The third group is described as among thorns. These are those who let the cares of the world distract them away and they bare no fruit.
And the fourth is descibed as good ground which received the word deeply and bare fruit.
The seed (the Word of God) was given to all. It was the hearer that made the difference, not God.
You didn't explain a thing.
If God could choose some to be saved, then he could choose all to be saved. So, if some remained lost, it was because God made that choice. And in the parable of the sower, the seed (God's Word) was sown to all.
What you fail to see is that the difference was with the hearer.
The first group is described as the way side. This ground is not plowed and is walked upon. A seed cannot penetrate this ground and so lies on the surface where the birds come and take it away.
The second group was compared to shallow earth (a rock in Luke) that had no depth or moisture. These fell away when persecution arose.
The third group is described as among thorns. These are those who let the cares of the world distract them away and they bare no fruit.
And the fourth is descibed as good ground which received the word deeply and bare fruit.
The seed (the Word of God) was given to all. It was the hearer that made the difference, not God.
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If Calvinism is true then God most certainly has chosen some to stay lost.
If I find 2 people who have fallen into a well and I choose to pull one out and leave the other in the pit, then it is by own choice since I could have pulled both out.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are correct. It would have been useless!
If you chose to believe that you can do so.
That is correct. All received the Gospel Call but that call was Effectual for only one.
No! I don't fail to see that. I do! But what is the difference? Can you answer that? No! But I can!
The difference is that the one who was truly saved, who truly believed, the one who received the Effectual Call, had previously been made Spiritually Alive, Regenerated, Born from Above [However you choose to say it.] by the Holy Spirit and that Regeneration was through no action on his part. Being a new creation in Christ he was then given the faith to respond to the Gospel Call.
The Gospel Call for him was, therefore, the Effectual Call, since God had made him who was dead in trespasses and sins Spiritually Alive. This is all shown very clearly in Ephesians 2:1-9.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then you make man the author and finisher of his own salvation, not God. That is contrary to Scripture.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 10:22-30
22. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Verse 26 tells why the three did not believe. They were not His sheep.
Hebrews12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jesus is both the author and finisher of our faith. So you must decide whether you are the author and finisher of your own salvation or not. As for me I give all the Glory to God for my Salvation. Left to myself I would still be dead in my sin and so would you whether you believe it or not.
The difference is some receive him not.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
It is almost comical, you say it is useless to explain the scriptures you believe support your argument. Why? Because you believe I won't listen, because I will reject them.
You believe a man can reject the teachings and opinions of another man, but cannot reject the grace of God.
But verse 48 above shows different. Jesus speaks here of those that reject him and receiveth not his words. He also speaks of judgement.
And this is what is so absolutely absurd about your belief. If God is just, if God is good, would it be just for God to judge and punish a man for unbelief if God himself blinded that person?
It makes no sense at all to any rational person. And to believe as you do you must ignore many, many verses that show salvation is offered to all.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I presented this verse which absolutely disproves Calvinism. Some try to argue "all men" does not mean all men. You argue there are two kinds of callings. I mean, can't you see what you are doing? Instead of accepting God's Word for what it says, you and others wrest the clear meaning to fit your preconceived belief.
And you cannot simply take Ephesians chapter 2 to teach your belief that God regenerates a man which gives him faith to be saved. Because in chapter 1 it shows entirely different.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I have shown you many times that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is when a man sincerely listens to the word of God that he has faith. And when a man personally trusts Jesus Christ as his saviour, THEN he is sealed with the Holy Spirit.
You know, you just can't selectively choose scripture to suit your own purpose.
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