In the Beginning....

[Dr. Walter]

Genesis 1:1. Clearly.

What do you mean "clearly"? Are you saying you take Genesis 1:1 literally? If so, for what reason? Is it because of the word "create"? Isn't that the same word used for the sea life, birds and mammals here and elsewhere in Sciptures?

Do you beleive that God created ex nihilo sea life, birds, mammals instantly just as he did the material universe? Hence, the animal life living today was instantly created rather than a process of millions or billions of years?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What do you mean "clearly"? Are you saying you take Genesis 1:1 literally? If so, for what reason? Is it because of the word "create"? Isn't that the same word used for the sea life, birds and mammals here and elsewhere in Sciptures?

Ah... see there you go again taking what I said out of context. Didn't I say

That the bible is truth in all that it asserts. I do not believe that God superseded the language and literary styles of the day but used them in their context to spread the truth...But I do know the entire bible is not to be taken literally... Having done a comparitive analysis of the literary types of Summeria its clear that it is in this fashion that God communicates the truths as I've pointed out in my previous post

And what truths are these? Didn't I say

I believe Genesis 1 was structured to do 3 things. Assert God is greater than all other gods, to assert that God indeed created the universe in an orderly fashion from an ex nihilio starting point, and to establish the theology of the sabbath. I believe that Genesis 2 deals with a different set of issues and establishes 1) the special creation of man being in God's image. 2) the place of man amongst creation 3) the origins of community and the theology of marriage. So genesis 2 is a means of establishing a theology of man.

Thus the truth of ex nihilo is expressed in genesis 1.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Ah... see there you go again taking what I said out of context. Didn't I say And what truths are these? Didn't I say
Thus the truth of ex nihilo is expressed in genesis 1.

Therefore according to your interpretative theory, Genesis one is expressed in the literary style of that day! In other words, God communicated His Word according to pagan literary practices. Now, this pure assumption is based upon what?

Where in pagan literature do you find "evening and morning" used figuratively according to the literary style of pagans?

BTW I didn't take you out of context, I quoted exactly what you said and placed part of that quote in parenthesis.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Therefore according to your interpretative theory, Genesis one is expressed in the literary style of that day! In other words, God communicated His Word according to pagan literary practices. Now, this pure assumption is based upon what?

Where in pagan literature do you find "evening and morning" used figuratively according to the literary style of pagans?

BTW I didn't take you out of context, I quoted exactly what you said and placed part of that quote in parenthesis.

You did therefore I put the context back in.

Where in pagan literature do you find "evening and morning" used figuratively according to the literary style of pagans

its a musical device called a refrain. Ancient literture has this as does the story of Gilgamesh and Atrahasis.

Here from Gilgamesh tablet III

to Ninsun, the Great Queen.
Gilgamesh arose and went to her.
"Ninsun, (even though) I am extraordinarily strong (!)...
I must now travel a long way to where Humbaba is,
I must face fighting such as I have not known,
and I must travel on a road that I do not know!
Until the time that I go and return,
until I reach the Cedar Forest,
until I kill Humbaba the Terrible,

Then latter in the tablet

she offered fragrant cuttings, and raised her arms to Shamash.
"Why have you imposed--nay, inflicted!--a restless heart on
my son, Gilgamesh!
Now you have touched him so that he wants to travel
a long way to where Humbaba is!
He will face fighting such as he has not known,
and will travel on a road that he does not know!
Until he goes away and returns,
until he reaches the Cedar Forest,
until he kills Humbaba the Terrible,

its the same literary device. Atrahasis has this same repetative device

The gods were digging watercourses,
canals they opened, the life of the land.
The Igigi-gods were digging watercourses
canals they opened, the life of the land

These are the simple example of how this type of literary device is used. But you should get the idea.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You did therefore I put the context back in.

its a musical device called a refrain. Ancient literture has this as does the story of Gilgamesh and Atrahasis.

Here from Gilgamesh tablet III Then latter in the tablet its the same literary device. Atrahasis has this same repetative device These are the simple example of how this type of literary device is used. But you should get the idea.

I don't see how in the world you make any connection????? Again, where in ancient pagan literature do you find "evening and the morning" used symbolically, spiritually, allegorically as you suggest it is being used in Genesis chapter one

 

[Dr. Walter]

You did therefore I put the context back in.

its a musical device called a refrain. Ancient literture has this as does the story of Gilgamesh and Atrahasis.

Here from Gilgamesh tablet III Then latter in the tablet its the same literary device. Atrahasis has this same repetative device These are the simple example of how this type of literary device is used. But you should get the idea.

If this is the kind of evidence your position stands on you are in very bad shape.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't see how in the world you make any connection????? Again, where in ancient pagan literature do you find "evening and the morning" used symbolically, spiritually, allegorically as you suggest it is being used in Genesis chapter one

Do you know what a refrain is? I've shown you that Genesis uses a refrain night and day. I've shown you this same device is used in contemporary pagan literature. how can you not see it? Just because the topic of the refrain is different doesn't meant the device is different. Two contemporary songs in a modern context then.
the chorus for newsboys' song shine

shine
make ´em wonder what you´ve got
make ´em wish that they were not
on the outside looking bored

repeated throughout the song Now a song from FFH Breath in me

Breathe in me
I fall so easily
How can it be
That you would rescue me
So Breathe in me
Breathe in me

Repeated throughout the song. It is the same literary device both are allegorical just the topics are different. This is what I am talking about. And so I showed you the device that was common for the day to remember and make a point was used on 3 contemporary literature types. Genesis, Gilgamesh, and Atrahasis. Of course genesis allegorical meaning is going to be different from the other accounts because the other accounts are pagan and genesis is not. However, genesis uses the same device because that is how people related information in that day.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If this is the kind of evidence your position stands on you are in very bad shape.

Actually, its good information. Based on archeolical and anthropological evidence. It allows for the bible to maintain its truth with out requiring me to come up with some elaborate scheme to force my truth back into the bible. It allows for the bible to be viewed at wholistically without contradiction or error or force me to suspend my intellect when valid scientific evidence speaks contrarily to your interpretation of the bible. By natural observation we can determine that the universe is a lot older than 10,000 years. You've place yourself in the position of having to say either God lied about the six days of creation, or that God or satan was involved in a concerted deception over the natural world purposely to mislead men by providing false evidence with in nature and the laws of nature. Fact nor reason play a guiding role in your interpretation. You cannot allow for either so your entire belief about the genesis account is reliant soley on your predisposed faith. Which means you read your faith into it rather than taking the context of the literature. Thats like putting tradition above scripture alone.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Do you know what a refrain is? I've shown you that Genesis uses a refrain night and day. I've shown you this same device is used in contemporary pagan literature. how can you not see it? Just because the topic of the refrain is different doesn't meant the device is different. Two contemporary songs in a modern context then.
the chorus for newsboys' song shine repeated throughout the song Now a song from FFH Breath in me
Repeated throughout the song. It is the same literary device both are allegorical just the topics are different. This is what I am talking about. And so I showed you the device that was common for the day to remember and make a point was used on 3 contemporary literature types. Genesis, Gilgamesh, and Atrahasis. Of course genesis allegorical meaning is going to be different from the other accounts because the other accounts are pagan and genesis is not. However, genesis uses the same device because that is how people related information in that day.

The fourth commandment does not, and I repeat does not, view "evening and the morning" as a "refrain" or mere rhetorical device used in music but demands that God's example can indeed be followed by men in regard to literal and actual "days." Indeed, such an interpretation makes the fourth commandment ludricous.

You have proven nothing but the extent that an unbelieving mind will go to avoid and reject the obvious.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The fourth commandment does not, and I repeat does not, view "evening and the morning" as a "refrain" or mere rhetorical device used in music but demands that God's example can indeed be followed by men in regard to literal and actual "days." Indeed, such an interpretation makes the fourth commandment ludricous.

You have proven nothing but the extent that an unbelieving mind will go to avoid and reject the obvious.

The fourth commandment upholds the sabbath theology demonstrated in Genesis one. Which is the purpose of Genesis one.

Oh and your assertion that I'm "unbelieving" is ad honimem. The fact is I don't believe in your interpretation of Genesis one. This does not indicate that I disbelieve God, or that he is almighty or that Jesus died to attone for my sins and redeem my life. In fact, I believe quite a bit. I believe in Christ resurrection and future return, I believe in the miracles of the bible. I believe the bible is true. I just don't buy into your perspective on this issue.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You've place yourself in the position of having to say either God lied about the six days of creation, or that God or satan was involved in a concerted deception over the natural world purposely to mislead men by providing false evidence with in nature and the laws of nature. Fact nor reason play a guiding role in your interpretation.

The truth is, you are the one taking HUMAN WISDOM as the basis for rejecting the LITERAL account of Creation - not I! Your whole attack on the LITERAL reading of Genesis one is based solely upon HUMAN SPECULATION and THEORIES that you PRESUME to be fact rather than based in scientific data produced by the scientific method.

Certainly, the literal account of Creation cannot be verified by the scientific method, but there are many BIBLE BELIEVING scientist that argue nothing verified by the scientific method REALLY disputes the Literal Genesis account.

Your argument about paganist literary devices is so stupid that I can't really see how a person as bright as you seem to be, can swallow such nonsense. Remember, the same hand that penned Genesis chapter one and two is the same hand that penned the fourth commandment. If the reality of "evening and moring" were not literal 24 hour days then there is absolutely no sane or reasonable basis that Moses could say:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The pagans around Israel would ridicule such a statement if the creation account in Genesis really was to be interpreted by their paganistic method!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The truth is, you are the one taking HUMAN WISDOM as the basis for rejecting the LITERAL account of Creation - not I! Your whole attack on the LITERAL reading of Genesis one is based solely upon HUMAN SPECULATION and THEORIES that you PRESUME to be fact rather than based in scientific data produced by the scientific method.

Certainly, the literal account of Creation cannot be verified by the scientific method, but there are many BIBLE BELIEVING scientist that argue nothing verified by the scientific method REALLY disputes the Literal Genesis account.

Your argument about paganist literary devices is so stupid that I can't really see how a person as bright as you seem to be, can swallow such nonsense. Remember, the same hand that penned Genesis chapter one and two is the same hand that penned the fourth commandment. If the reality of "evening and moring" were not literal 24 hour days then there is absolutely no sane or reasonable basis that Moses could say:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The pagans around Israel would ridicule such a statement if the creation account in Genesis really was to be interpreted by their paganistic method!

There is a lot of validity to what I've said and support from Archeology and anthropological studies. I hold to a theology of the sabbath because God wants me to. However because you've said

the same hand that penned Genesis chapter one and two is the same hand that penned the fourth commandment.

is based on extra biblical tradition and its clear that you dont think the J source wrote Genesis 1 and the P source wrote genesis two.
Also your statement

If the reality of "evening and moring" were not literal 24 hour days

which is a refrain establishing a sabbath theology much like a chorus in a modern song the words here used allegorically for a spiritual purpose is meant to mean 24 hours for the purpose of establishing a sabbath not that this was the worlds limited creation. Of course Moses could then write

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

to conclude the theology of it. Keep the Sabbath holy!
Also to say

The pagans around Israel would ridicule such a statement if the creation account in Genesis really was to be interpreted by their paganistic method

really shows your inadiquate knowledge of history. Pagans in Israel believed what pagans in Cannaan believed which was a lot more exagerated than my explination.

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is a lot of validity to what I've said and support from Archeology and anthropological studies. I hold to a theology of the sabbath because God wants me to. However because you've said is based on extra biblical tradition and its clear that you dont think the J source wrote Genesis 1 and the P source wrote genesis two.
Also your statement which is a refrain establishing a sabbath theology much like a chorus in a modern song the words here used allegorically for a spiritual purpose is meant to mean 24 hours for the purpose of establishing a sabbath not that this was the worlds limited creation. Of course Moses could then write to conclude the theology of it. Keep the Sabbath holy!
Also to say really shows your inadiquate knowledge of history. Pagans in Israel believed what pagans in Cannaan believed which was a lot more exagerated than my explination.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/13

None of the Old Testament writers attributed the Penteteuch to anyone else but Moses.

None of the New Testament writers attributed the authorship of the Penteteuch to anyone but Moses

Jesus attribued Genesis 2 as well as the whole Penteteuch to Moses and none other - Jn. 1:17; 7:19.

How do the Biblical writers divide the Old Testament according to authorship? None of them support the documentary hypothesis theory.

Here, is your problem. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and do not follow another. You are hearing and following those who oppose Christ.

 

[DHK]

There is a lot of validity to what I've said and support from Archeology and anthropological studies. I hold to a theology of the sabbath because God wants me to.

God wants you to believe the theology of the sabbath, but God doesn't want you to believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch even though Christ said he did? Do you deny his deity, and his words? He attributed the authorship of Genesis to Moses.

However because you've said is based on extra biblical tradition and its clear that you dont think the J source wrote Genesis 1 and the P source wrote genesis two.

Thus your words deny the words of God the Son. Can you prove that there was a J source, and that there was a P source. None of those unbelieving critics have ever proved this theory. It is all guess work with the agenda to deny the inspiration of the Bible. You have obviously agreed with them.

Also your statement which is a refrain establishing a sabbath theology much like a chorus in a modern song the words here used allegorically for a spiritual purpose is meant to mean 24 hours for the purpose of establishing a sabbath not that this was the worlds limited creation.

Why can't you believe what it says. Why not just allegorize the entire Bible, including salvation itself.

Of course Moses could then write to conclude the theology of it. Keep the Sabbath holy!

Now you are literal. Why be literal here and allegorize the previous verses. You are inconsistent.

Also to say really shows your inadiquate knowledge of history. Pagans in Israel believed what pagans in Cannaan believed which was a lot more exagerated than my explination.

This is the most pitiful thing that you have ever said.
You believe, not the Moses is the author, but that unbelieving Jews copied from pagans in Canaan. There were pagans in Israel, and those pagans were the real authors of Genesis. What a pitiful belief. Only an unsaved person could hold a belief like that, and that is where you got it from--unsaved people. Why keep such company? It is true isn't it? Birds of a feather flock together?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/13

None of the Old Testament writers attributed the Penteteuch to anyone else but Moses.

None of the New Testament writers attributed the authorship of the Penteteuch to anyone but Moses

Jesus attribued Genesis 2 as well as the whole Penteteuch to Moses and none other - Jn. 1:17; 7:19.

How do the Biblical writers divide the Old Testament according to authorship? None of them support the documentary hypothesis theory.

Here, is your problem. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and do not follow another. You are hearing and following those who oppose Christ.

Ah. If you really knew your stuff you wouldn't have said the pentatuch but rather Torah. And the biblical "writers" don't divide the old testament. That came after the autographs. And only in your twisted thinking do you suppose that everyone that doesn't agree with you is "opposing Christ". I'm sorry. You aren't Christ. I can say Moses wrote the Torah but believe Joshua concluded the death account of Moses before penning the book of Joshua. That doesn't mean When I say Moses That I think he wrote the whole thing. Btw if you knew first century rabbinical teaching the torah is always referred to as being by Moses. But that doesn't mean no one else had a hand in its writing. I'm sure Moses used scribes. After All Jethro got on his case for handling every detail of governance by himself.
Here is your problem. You are not Jesus Christ. You are no greater authority than I in interpreting the bible. I follow Christ. I don't believe anything unorthodox. I hold to the trinity, the inspiration of scripture, the life death and ressurrection of jesus christ, I hold to his 2nd advent. I believe the Holy Spirit will guide me into all truth. My life since my conversion has shown the fruits of Jesus redeeming my life. I am content in his hands. Thankfully, I don't have to put my life into your hands and have you interpret scripture for me.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

God wants you to believe the theology of the sabbath, but God doesn't want you to believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch even though Christ said he did? Do you deny his deity, and his words? He attributed the authorship of Genesis to Moses.

Since whom I quote is under debate by "all ya'll" (Texas is fun). Let me quote from Christian teachers. Don Colson from Probe Ministries states

On the other hand, the conservative view holds to Mosaic authorship and treats the books as a literary unit. This does not mean that Moses didn't use other documents to write his books. He obviously did.

Thus your words deny the words of God the Son.

Actually, it doesn't and calls into question your reading comprehension.

Can you prove that there was a J source, and that there was a P source. None of those unbelieving critics have ever proved this theory. It is all guess work with the agenda to deny the inspiration of the Bible. You have obviously agreed with them.

As I've quoted from another christian source to show that obviously there were other sources for the compilation of Torah. Which means Moses didn't write the entire first 5 books but compiled it from several sources so that in a sense Wilhem Hengstenberg is wrong about when other sources were included but right that there were multiple sources in the compilation of the 5 text. The Majority of the work from Moses but the genesis account is compiled.

Why can't you believe what it says. Why not just allegorize the entire Bible, including salvation itself.

I do. Why don't you just believe John 6 and eat Jesus' flesh?

Now you are literal. Why be literal here and allegorize the previous verses. You are inconsistent

again your reading comprehension is in trouble. I said truths and ex nihilo is a truth.

This is the most pitiful thing that you have ever said.
You believe, not the Moses is the author, but that unbelieving Jews copied from pagans in Canaan.

Again reading comprehension problems. What part of literary styles do you not understand? Probably the whole thing. Are you Japanese? No but can you write Haiku? Obviously yes. Do you have to copy other haiku verbatum? No. but stylistically you can imitate it.

There were pagans in Israel, and those pagans were the real authors of Genesis.

Again its clear you don't understand what you read. I never said pagans wrote genesis. You are the master of putting words that people did not say into their mouths.

What a pitiful belief.

Good because I don't believe that pagans wrote genesis.

Only an unsaved person could hold a belief like that

only an illeterate can read what I said and come to that conclusion.

and that is where you got it from--unsaved people. Why keep such company? It is true isn't it? Birds of a feather flock together?

Oh you want to do a witch hunt too. You're no better than the Catholics that locked up Galileo or started the Inquisition in Spain. Do you want to put a carrot on my nose and call me a witch while Dr. Walter can say I turned him into a newt? How did you ever get passed believing the earth was flat?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Ah. If you really knew your stuff you wouldn't have said the pentatuch but rather Torah.

The "Torah" and "Penteteuch" are synonyms in theological discourse. Jesus attributed Moses to be the author of all FIVE books. We can find Jesus quoting from all FIVE books and attributing the authorship to Moses. A Mosaic authorship does not deny that Joshua added comments as His scribe. However, the Documentary Hypothesis theory states the scribes lived far later than either Moses or Joshua.


I truly believe you need salvation and until you are saved it is pointless to argue with you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I do. Why don't you just believe John 6 and eat Jesus' flesh?

This is your response to why you believe you are saved. The clear confession of a religous lost man.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1640160&postcount=180

 

[DHK]

Actually, its good information. Based on archeolical and anthropological evidence. It allows for the bible to maintain its truth with out requiring me to come up with some elaborate scheme to force my truth back into the bible. It allows for the bible to be viewed at wholistically without contradiction or error or force me to suspend my intellect when valid scientific evidence speaks contrarily to your interpretation of the bible. By natural observation we can determine that the universe is a lot older than 10,000 years. You've place yourself in the position of having to say either God lied about the six days of creation, or that God or satan was involved in a concerted deception over the natural world purposely to mislead men by providing false evidence with in nature and the laws of nature. Fact nor reason play a guiding role in your interpretation. You cannot allow for either so your entire belief about the genesis account is reliant soley on your predisposed faith. Which means you read your faith into it rather than taking the context of the literature. Thats like putting tradition above scripture alone.

This is your belief.
In this context you stated that pagans in Israel believed what the pagans in Canaan believed which was more exaggerated than yours. But is it? You offer up a pagan belief. Furthermore your statement about pagans in Israel is totally without foundation. You make a ridiculous statement without any basis or foundation. Give evidence for such a belief.
All Israel believed in Jehovah. Not all Israel were believing Israel, but they never wholly departed from the Lord their God, though they worshiped other gods such as Baal. That fact must be understood in the light of their idolatry.

You keep referring to "archeological and anthropological evidence but never can provide any. Thus such evidence is moot. That is--useless.

You say "such evidence" (never provided) "allows you to view the Bible wholistically (sic), without contradiction or error or forces you suspend your intellect."
Yet that is what you have done. You have thrown away your intellect and accepted by faith the opinions of unbelieving critics who cannot prove their own theories. You have accepted by faith theories of unbelievers who have claimed their so-called science supports the origin of the world. This is not science at all. Anything that delves into the metaphysical lies outside the realm of science and is in the realm of faith. Science supports no such thing. You have suspended your own intellect by following the philosophies of unbelieving critics whose theories cannot be proven. And on and on it goes by a straight denial of God's written Word.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The "Torah" and "Penteteuch" are synonyms in theological discourse. Jesus attributed Moses to be the author of all FIVE books. We can find Jesus quoting from all FIVE books and attributing the authorship to Moses. A Mosaic authorship does not deny that Joshua added comments as His scribe. However, the Documentary Hypothesis theory states the scribes lived far later than either Moses or Joshua.


I truly believe you need salvation and until you are saved it is pointless to argue with you.

The problem with using Pentateuch rather than Torah is that it is a direct referrence to LXX rather than the autographs which would be Torah. As you know the Greek translation was many years latter and the translation is different slightly than the autographs hebrew version. That is your first error.

Second error by saying

I truly believe you need salvation and until you are saved it is pointless to argue with you

You've made a judgement that is belonging to God. You've put yourself in his position. Clearly this is problematic as the real test for those faithful to Christ is expressed by how we love one another John 15:12 and Also you can tell one who is faithful to Christ by how they follow him Matthew 25: 37-40

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Notice not one of these passages indicates how one should translate genesis 1. Also since you have placed yourself in God's seat and judged my salvation; you should be conserned about something else. The Legal term for Accusing attorney in Hebrew is satan. Who accuses the faithful constantly. does this consern you. And finally you've broken forum rules