In the Cross, Did God Reconcile ALL Or Just The saved Peoples?

[David Lamb]

David....Ive been wanting to read this Owen book for 6 months now but feared its too much for a new to the faith Christian. Would you recommend it?

For a new-to-the-faith Christian (or an "old-to-the-faith Christian" for whom English is not a first language or who finds Owen's original hard to grasp) I would certainly recommend John Appleby's "Life by His Death", an easy-to-read version of "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". It is published by Grace Publications, and is available from Evangelical Press, or (in the USA) from www.cvbbs.com The ISBN is: 9780950547633.

I have heard several people say that after reading one of the abridgments in the "Christian Classics" series by Grace Publications (such as "Life by His Death"), they find they can then read the original, which they found so daunting before.

 

[Iconoclast]

Luke2427, you responded to Jesus fan with this...




They do. They get their convictions from the scriptures

This is another post where you talk about scripture,but fail to interact with the verses offered...

No theology?? Who are these "no theology" people you speak of ??? They are rich in theology.

You offer no theology here! If you are rich in it...share some when you post.

Ummm....no, they get their theology strait from the scriptures.

Again...you offer no theology or scripture so it does not look like it.

Scripture: "There is none that doeth good, no not one"

okay....now we are getting somewhere...a verse.....thats what we need.

We are all wretches who need a savior.

Yes....correct...all have sinned...yes


That is why people choose Christ.

No.....sinners love sin....they choose sin,and wretchedness, they are bound by sin....something must happen to them for this to change....

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not

The darkness comprehended it not

Maybe Jesus can help us understand why this takes place? Lets look for more info on this.....

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Lets see....
1]men loved darkness
2]they hate the light
3]they do not come to the light

Looks like something has to change! maybe new birth is necessary after all
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Now he the practices truth....[sounds like a believer]...comes to the light...

Instead of evil works, there are good works...those works are wrought in God!
God is at work in these elect persons,and they are doing the good works that are ordained that they should walk in them!

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Thats because God does not have puppets dangling from a string, nor does He have robots, as calvinism seems to promote.

AIC.....not puppets and robots, no gospel clowns,skits, sad stories about dead dogs dying,trying to get someone somewhere to accept something!

No ...God saves sinners, drawing them savingly to The Son in electing grace and love....changing them from wretches, to saints...they are made willing in the day of His power,and eternally thankful and eager to serve the Lord...with those good works that are ordained for them. They are unprofitable servants doing their reasonable service of worship, with joy and gladness.

Puppets and robots......are only to those who do not understand the dynamics of this electing grace.


Nonsense. God created the universe because He wanted one. And He gave His people free will because He didnt want to have puppets and robots. He wanted people with free will.

And yet the scripture does not mention this at all, but you seem to bring it up several times...using your self will.

No...people go to hell because they choose to, by refusing Christ.

People go to hell because Jesus sends them there for sins not paid for.
he is very willing that many perish.People loving darkness choose to sin,not choose hell....they are sent under the righteous judgement of God.

..............:type:

 

[Luke2427]

They do. They get their convictions from the scriptures

Nope. Next...

No theology?? Who are these "no theology" people you speak of ??? They are rich in theology.

What's it called? Where can I find their statement of faith? Where are it's historical roots? Who has systematized it?

I'm waiting...

Ummm....no, they get their theology strait from the scriptures.

The United Pentecostals and the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and Rob Bell and Joel Osteen and Clark Pinnock all claim this.

This is a worthless statement. You must show how or you are wasting your breath saying absolutely nothing.

Scripture: "There is none that doeth good, no not one"

Right. And it is GOOD to turn to Christ and the Bible says there is none that doeth good.

So all are sinners who cannot turn to Christ because they cannot do good. They cannot do good because they are totally depraved.

Since they cannot choose Christ (WHICH IS GOOD) they must be CHOSEN.

Now you're a Calvinist! Congratulations! It's like getting saved all over again isn't it?

That's how Spurgeon described it!

We are all wretches who need a savior. That is why people choose Christ.

We are all wretches and that is why we do NOT choose Christ.

See you are proving my point. Your theology is inconsistent.

Men are wretches SO they choose Christ.

That is like saying he is DEAD so he is going skiing.

Thats because God does not have puppets dangling from a string, nor does He have robots, as calvinism seems to promote.

Study the Westminster Confession and the 1689 Baptist Confession and you won't find any robots or puppets.

But thanks for playing!

Nonsense. God created the universe because He wanted one. And He gave His people free will because He didnt want to have puppets and robots. He wanted people with free will.

Why did he want one? did he have a purpose?

You people believe God created man because he wanted a being that would CHOOSE to love him.
You say this makes God so loving.

Of course MOST- and I mean the VAST MAJORITY of the human race which develops that free will exercises it to spit in God's eye and go to eternal hell where they will roast forever without rest and without hope of ever one second of relief.

How does giving us free will illustrate how God loves us so much again??

No...people go to hell because they choose to, by refusing Christ.

Well there's that and then there's what the Bible teaches- that men go to hell because they are SINNERS.

I guess you can go with either one you want to. I'll go with the Bible personally.

You sure dont.

Right. Nobody does. Only the particular individual who believes this stuff really knows. He may not agree with any other of these nameless theology people. So we don't know what you people believe and you don't know what each other believes.

It is just a mystery.

That wont do it.

Take them seriously and you will be surprised at how helpful they will be in helping you to undersand.

It's not possible. They don't even have a theology to TAKE seriously. It has no form, no substance, no consistency.

I cannot take it seriously for the same reason that all thinking people cannot take The Flying Spaghetti Monster seriously.

 

[savedbymercy]

perch:

How is something renewed to you if you never had it in the first place?

I don't think you understand the word renewing. Its a descriptive word indicating a change for the better. Its the greek word anakainōsis:

a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better

This comes with the New Birth.

Now, those experiencing this renewal or New Birth, or New Life, they did have it [already] in their Head, the Lord Jesus Christ. They did not have it yet experimentally, but they had it representatively in Him. Thats what is meant here Jn 1:4

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Thats the spiritual life of all the elect seed in Him. At God's time, each one of those having this Spiritual life of theirs in Him, shall be renewed by it.

They are renewed because their previous life received from Adam as their head is fallen and corrupt.

Why would the Father have to give Jesus the promise of the Holy Spirit?

For the benefit of those He died for. The Holy Ghost communicates unto them His and their life in Him.

Thats why they are renewed because of the Holy Spirit Christ shed unto them, thats seen in Titus 3:5-6

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

The Holy Spirit converts unto New Life all for whom Christ died and rose for. If Christ died for one, they will be renewed by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Aaron]

The puritan, John Owen points out in His book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, that only three positions are possible regarding the extent of the atonement:

(a) Jesus died for all the sins of all people,
(b) Jesus died for all the sins of some people,
(c) Jesus died for some sins of all people.

Now, if position (c) is correct, then all are still in their sins. If position (a) is correct, then why are all not saved? If the answer is because of unbelief, we ask: Is not unbelief a sin for which Christ died to atone (Jn.17.9)? If Christ died for the sin of unbelief for all people, then why are people punished for the sin of unbelief? The only consistent position is (b), for it satisfies both reason and experience.
​

In Life by His Death, an abridgment by John Appleby of Owen's classic, Death of Death, we read:

If the death of Christ actually obtains redemption, cleansing, purification, bearing away sins, reconciliation, eternal life, and citizenship in a kingdom, then He must have died only for those who do get those things. It is not true that all men have those things, as is very clear! The salvation of all men therefore cannot have been the purpose of the death of Christ.
​

I find that helpful, and I hope you do too.

:thumbs::jesus:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

I said...

They do. They get their convictions from the scriptures

And you said...

This is another post where you talk about scripture,but fail to interact with the verses offered...

Because you (and few others) are basically almost hopeless. You have been indoctrinated into calvinism to the the point where you have been rendered unable to discern scriptural truth from error.

Its actually very similar to the times I have interacted with cultists like the JW's and Mormons. Scriptural truth goes in one ear and out the other, and a result truth can not be discerned due to the brainwashing.

Calvin is your truth authority, rather than the scriptures.

May God help you.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Nope. Next...



What's it called? Where can I find their statement of faith? Where are it's historical roots? Who has systematized it?

I'm waiting...



The United Pentecostals and the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and Rob Bell and Joel Osteen and Clark Pinnock all claim this.

This is a worthless statement. You must show how or you are wasting your breath saying absolutely nothing.



Right. And it is GOOD to turn to Christ and the Bible says there is none that doeth good.

So all are sinners who cannot turn to Christ because they cannot do good. They cannot do good because they are totally depraved.

Since they cannot choose Christ (WHICH IS GOOD) they must be CHOSEN.

Now you're a Calvinist! Congratulations! It's like getting saved all over again isn't it?

That's how Spurgeon described it!



We are all wretches and that is why we do NOT choose Christ.

See you are proving my point. Your theology is inconsistent.

Men are wretches SO they choose Christ.

That is like saying he is DEAD so he is going skiing.




Study the Westminster Confession and the 1689 Baptist Confession and you won't find any robots or puppets.

But thanks for playing!



Why did he want one? did he have a purpose?

You people believe God created man because he wanted a being that would CHOOSE to love him.
You say this makes God so loving.

Of course MOST- and I mean the VAST MAJORITY of the human race which develops that free will exercises it to spit in God's eye and go to eternal hell where they will roast forever without rest and without hope of ever one second of relief.

How does giving us free will illustrate how God loves us so much again??



Well there's that and then there's what the Bible teaches- that men go to hell because they are SINNERS.

I guess you can go with either one you want to. I'll go with the Bible personally.



Right. Nobody does. Only the particular individual who believes this stuff really knows. He may not agree with any other of these nameless theology people. So we don't know what you people believe and you don't know what each other believes.

It is just a mystery.




It's not possible. They don't even have a theology to TAKE seriously. It has no form, no substance, no consistency.

I cannot take it seriously for the same reason that all thinking people cannot take The Flying Spaghetti Monster seriously.

Luke...

please refer to my post #26 to Iconoclast, (just above) as my response to him in that post would be perfect for you as well.

AiC

 

[percho]

perch:



I don't think you understand the word renewing. Its a descriptive word indicating a change for the better. Its the greek word anakainōsis:

a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better

This comes with the New Birth.

Now, those experiencing this renewal or New Birth, or New Life, they did have it [already] in their Head, the Lord Jesus Christ. They did not have it yet experimentally, but they had it representatively in Him. Thats what is meant here Jn 1:4

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Thats the spiritual life of all the elect seed in Him. At God's time, each one of those having this Spiritual life of theirs in Him, shall be renewed by it.

They are renewed because their previous life received from Adam as their head is fallen and corrupt.



For the benefit of those He died for. The Holy Ghost communicates unto them His and their life in Him.

Thats why they are renewed because of the Holy Spirit Christ shed unto them, thats seen in Titus 3:5-6

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

The Holy Spirit converts unto New Life all for whom Christ died and rose for. If Christ died for one, they will be renewed by the Holy Ghost.

You do not understand my question I don't think.

Why would Jesus being God or if you will God the Son have to be given the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Being he is God, why did the Father have to give the Son the Holy Spirit.

Before, And the Word was made flesh, when this is said of him, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,"
Did he not have command of the Spirit to bring about the creation the world and all therein.

I know no Greek. But what took place here: ἀλλ᾽ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν YNG but did empty himself?
He told his disciples that if did not go away the Holy Spirit would not come to them. He then also prayed to the the Father this, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What all was inclusive in that glory? The better question may be what all was inclusive in that emptying? The Messiah, the anointed One, prophet, priest, king. Is this speaking as a prophet of resurrected life? For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Did he empty himself of life that was in himself when he was made flesh? If before this emptying in form was equal with after emptying and being in form with a servant, a slave was he still equal as he was? If so why the prayer of John 17:5? Did that emptying involve the Holy Spirit?

As I said I know no Greek. From Titus 3:5 ἀνακαινώσεως

If you brake that word down like that, which to be honest I do not know is possible. Is that part in the middle relative to the emptying in Philippians?

Help me out.

 

[Skandelon]

The puritan, John Owen points out in His book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, that only three positions are possible regarding the extent of the atonement:

(a) Jesus died for all the sins of all people,
(b) Jesus died for all the sins of some people,
(c) Jesus died for some sins of all people.

Now, if position (c) is correct, then all are still in their sins. If position (a) is correct, then why are all not saved? If the answer is because of unbelief, we ask: Is not unbelief a sin for which Christ died to atone (Jn.17.9)? ​

There is no question as to why some perish. Jesus clearly states, "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Why? Because it requires true faith for true repentance and one will not be forgiven for their unbelief unless they confess it. If someone remains in unbelief their entire lives then they have failed to meet the requirement for salvation...a requirement even Calvinists affirm the need for in salvation, btw.​

 

[percho]

There is no question as to why some perish. Jesus clearly states, "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Why? Because it requires true faith for true repentance and one will not be forgiven for their unbelief unless they confess it. If someone remains in unbelief their entire lives then they have failed to meet the requirement for salvation...a requirement even Calvinists affirm the need for in salvation, btw.

So they perish because they will not believe? I thought they had been perishing since the sin of Adam.

Or are all, dead in trespass and sin, dying thou shall surely die, perishing, yet God stepped in and rescued the elect and because they have been rescued they believe?

 

[Skandelon]

So they perish because they will not believe? I thought they had been perishing since the sin of Adam.

Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness long before Christ came. Same is true of people like Rahab and many others.

They don't enter the Promised Land because of unbelief, period. (Ref. Heb 3)

 

[percho]

Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness long before Christ came. Same is true of people like Rahab and many others.

They don't enter the Promised Land because of unbelief, period. (Ref. Heb 3)

That is true and the Lamb was slain before Adam was created also.

Let me say up front. I am not trying to put anything in stone. I am just asking?

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Was the faith here what God was doing to bring about his purpose or what Abraham did?

to-faith being called Abraham obeys to be coming out into the place

Lets look at Paul. And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

When did his unbelief become belief? When God removed the scales from him he was able to believe?

 

[asterisktom]

You do not understand my question I don't think.

Why would Jesus being God or if you will God the Son have to be given the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Being he is God, why did the Father have to give the Son the Holy Spirit.

Before, And the Word was made flesh, when this is said of him, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,"
Did he not have command of the Spirit to bring about the creation the world and all therein.

I know no Greek. But what took place here: ἀλλ᾽ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν YNG but did empty himself?
He told his disciples that if did not go away the Holy Spirit would not come to them. He then also prayed to the the Father this, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What all was inclusive in that glory? The better question may be what all was inclusive in that emptying? The Messiah, the anointed One, prophet, priest, king. Is this speaking as a prophet of resurrected life? For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Did he empty himself of life that was in himself when he was made flesh? If before this emptying in form was equal with after emptying and being in form with a servant, a slave was he still equal as he was? If so why the prayer of John 17:5? Did that emptying involve the Holy Spirit?

As I said I know no Greek. From Titus 3:5 ἀνακαινώσεως

If you brake that word down like that, which to be honest I do not know is possible. Is that part in the middle relative to the emptying in Philippians?

Help me out.

The word you are looking at in Titus (ἀνακαινώσεως) is a totally different word than the one in Phil. (ἐκένωσεν). The latter has to do with "emptying" - but not an emptying that would actually de-deify Him, only a voluntary laying aside of some. The Titus word, that part in the middle means "new". The two look similar but are different.

 

[Aaron]

Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness long before Christ came. Same is true of people like Rahab and many others.

They don't enter the Promised Land because of unbelief, period. (Ref. Heb 3)

Didn't you assert in another thread that the sinners of Romans 1 believed, yet did not enter?

So if it isn't unbelief, period, what is it?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You posted...

If any person goes to hell, they were not reconciled.

Correct. And the reason why they were never reconciled it that they chose to reject Christ.

AiC

 

[Aaron]

There is no question as to why some perish. Jesus clearly states, "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

One is either in his sins, or in Christ. The condemnation he is under is because of his sins. He remains in his sins because of unbelief.

Why? Because it requires true faith for true repentance and one will not be forgiven for their unbelief unless they confess it. If someone remains in unbelief their entire lives then they have failed to meet the requirement for salvation...a requirement even Calvinists affirm the need for in salvation, btw.

Calvinists believe in unconditional election.

We say, where there's smoke, there's fire, and we acknowledge that smoke is due to the fire. You say the fire is due to the smoke.

 

[percho]

The word you are looking at in Titus (ἀνακαινώσεως) is a totally different word than the one in Phil. (ἐκένωσεν). The latter has to do with "emptying" - but not an emptying that would actually de-deify Him, only a voluntary laying aside of some. The Titus word, that part in the middle means "new". The two look similar but are different.

Thanks as I said I know no Greek. All I did was copy this καινώσε from Titus 3 to Google
And it came up as kenose. I also noticed it is the same in Textus Receptus and GNT Morph.

What would you think was inclusive in the glory Jesus wanted to return to?

 

[Skandelon]

Didn't you assert in another thread that the sinners of Romans 1 believed, yet did not enter?

So if it isn't unbelief, period, what is it?

I answer this in that thread Aaron.

They knew God because they clearly saw and understood his divine attributes and eternal nature, but they were given over to their defiled minds because they "traded the TRUTH (of what they clearly saw and understood) for a lie." In other words, "they perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (ref. 2 Thess 2:10) In other words, they choose not to believe in (acknowledge and follow) the one they know and understand.

 

[Skandelon]

Calvinists believe in unconditional election.

Which is sometimes confused by "Calvinistic" members on this board with unconditional salvation. That is what I was pointing out.

We say, where there's smoke, there's fire, and we acknowledge that smoke is due to the fire. You say the fire is due to the smoke.

You are the ones who put the cart before the horse, or the smoke before the fire, if you will. You think we are given life (regeneration) in order that we will believe, but scripture says:

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing (fire) you may have life (smoke) in his name.

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC.

Because you (and few others) are basically almost hopeless. You have been indoctrinated into calvinism to the the point where you have been rendered unable to discern scriptural truth from error. Its actually very similar to the times I have interacted with cultists like the JW's and Mormons. Scriptural truth goes in one ear and out the other, and a result truth can not be discerned due to the brainwashing.

well AIC....in post 22 I offered a few sections of scripture,which once again you fail to engage in.....[I did not even look to see what calvin thought on these verses:thumbs: yet you do not correct my "brainwashed misunderstanding":laugh:

So that leaves us with Jn 3 jn 17 ezk34 jn 6 jn 10 ezk 36 that you would not like to respond to.....interesting AIC.....this is the Debate forum ...
not the coffee shop...yet no scriptural response.....just comment on my mental condition....and then you tell luke the same.....

I think you are not able to respond which is okay,although I think you need to re-evaluate where you stand, before you worry about me too much