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In the Flesh vs. In the Spirit

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The Biblicist

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Which perfect tense for "born" is it using? This is the second time in as many days I've seen someone say "Perfect Tense" without giving which perfect tense. There are 6 perfect tenses:
1. Present Perfect
2. Past Perfect
3. Future Perfect
4. Present Perfect Progressive
5. Past Perfect Progressive
6. Future Perfect Progressive

Which tense is being used makes a HUGE difference. I'm interested in this debate, and trying to learn. But near as I can tell, a lot of people (on both sides) don't have a clue what they are talking about, aren't really interested in discussion, and just want to parrot something they've been told their whole lives.

I think you are confusing English Grammar with Greek Grammar. Greek Grammar has SEVEN (not six) uses of the perfect. Sure there are overlaps from Greek to English uses of the Perfect.

In Greek verbs, time is only significant in the indicative mode and type of action is always more significant. In 1 John 5:1 the Greek verb is a Perfect Indicative passive. The passive voice demonstrates the person who is the object of new birth is not participating in that action but is the object of the action as it is the action "of God" not of man. The perfect tense is found in the indicative mode and thus the normal use of the indicative refers to a completed action in past time that continues as a completed action up to the present moment of writing. Remember, time is a factor in the indicative mode. The fact that the verb refers to the new birth demonstrates it cannot possibly be a continuing or incompleted action as it is elsewhere decribed as an Aorist tense puntillar created completed action (Eph. 2:5,10;4:24; Col. 3:10). Hence, it cannot possibly be intepreted a progressive continuous present tense incompleted action, so that eliminates numbers 1 and 4 in your options. The new birth is a punticilar completed action in the past (indicative mode) and so that eliminates numbers 3 and 6.

That leaves numbers 2,5. The new birth is not progressive in action. The use of the simple past perfect refers to a completed action in the past that stands complete from the past point of completion right to the present. Hence, the only possible choice that fits the character of the new birth is number 2 or the simple past perfect - completed action at some point in the past, which continues as a completed action.

Finally, this perfect tense verb is used with the present tense participle translated "believeth." The action of the participle in relationship to the action of the verb is the issue. If the participle were a completed action tense then it would indicate that action occurred previous to the action of the verb. If the participle were a future action tense then the action occurred after the action of the verb. However, the tense of the participle is a present tense action which demands it occurs SIMELTANEOUS with the action of the verb and that is precisely why the King James Translators use the present tense "is" to show this simeltaneous action.
 

Winman

Active Member
John 1:12-13 clearly shows that God does not give a person the power to become a "son of God" and be "born of God" until AFTER they receive Jesus and believe on his name.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

A little child could easily understand that this scripture says God gives the power to become a son of God and be born again to those persons who first receive Jesus and believe on his name.

Calvinism wrests scripture in a vain attempt to prove their false doctrine. There are multiple scriptures that ALL show faith precedes being born again and proves man has the ability to believe the gospel.

Do not allow false teachers to deceive you.
 
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