In the Garden of Gethsemane

[atpollard]

You've never seen Christ either but you believe in Him because of the same book. If you can't believe all of it why believe at all?
MB

Thank you for your completely irrelevant input.
I was not the one who accused Luke of "lying" about anything. I correctly pointed out that Luke "saw" NOTHING at the garden of Gethsemane because Luke was not there. Do you have some evidence that Luke was present when Jesus' sweat fell like/as clots of blood?

 

[agedman]

The cross was not the first blood shed by the Savior for his people. The cross is just the climax on the road from Gethsemane to Pentecost. The first blood shed for us by Christ was in the Garden of Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives. The place where the olives were crushed to obtain the precious oil contained within. The place where Jesus’ soul was being crushed to obtain the precious oil of the Holy Spirit that would anoint His Church on Pentecost.

I taught this principle for decades.

The Cross was NOT meant as a blood shedding instrument, but to allow continual torture for days.

The Cross was the instrument of death, the grave the instrument of entombment. Christ - the first fruits - victorious over both!

Paul declared:

53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
​

 

[MB]

Thank you for your completely irrelevant input.
I was not the one who accused Luke of "lying" about anything. I correctly pointed out that Luke "saw" NOTHING at the garden of Gethsemane because Luke was not there. Do you have some evidence that Luke was present when Jesus' sweat fell like/as clots of blood?

I'm sorry you feel it is irrelevant. It's true Luke was not one of the twelve I'll hand you that. I believe God's Word is inerrant, if it weren't, I'd throw it out.
MB

 

[agedman]

For those who want a medical journal that deals with the crucifixion, look at this document:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/deathjesus.pdf

It s a copy of the journal of America’s medical community research done on the crucifixion forensically researched.

 

[atpollard]

I'm sorry you feel it is irrelevant. It's true Luke was not one of the twelve I'll hand you that. I believe God's Word is inerrant, if it weren't, I'd throw it out.
MB

I apologize for my tone. Your use of the word "you" may have been more generic and I mistook it as a personal attack. That does not excuse my reacting from the flesh, it only explains why.

Please forgive me.
My response was inappropriately personal.

 

[MB]

I apologize for my tone. Your use of the word "you" may have been more generic and I mistook it as a personal attack. That does not excuse my reacting from the flesh, it only explains why.

Please forgive me.
My response was inappropriately personal.

No problem
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh, so Luke lied. The fact of the text, the sweat on the gound in the moon light is said to look like clumps of blood.

. . . ωσει like θρομβοι clots αιματος of blood καταβαινοντες falling down επι upon την the γην gound.

What Greek text are you quoting from there?

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, Luke said (by YOUR own translation) that the sweat fell like clots of blood.
Have YOU ever seen sweat fall like clots of blood? (I never have).

In any event, Luke was in no position to tell the truth or lie about anything ... Luke was not in the Garden of Gethsemane with Jesus, Peter, James and John to see the sweat fall. Therefore Luke is just faithfully reporting the eyewitness testimony of others (likely John in this case). As a physician, Luke was likely aware that it was possible to sweat actual blood since it was recorded in the medical literature he would have studied. As a non-medical person, such an event would likely have been extraordinary to whoever witnessed it and told Luke what they saw.

However, I was also not there to know definitively what happened.

Think that this really shows us how much pressure was upon our Lord at that point in time, as he was now facing up to the truth of he was shortly to take upon Himself the bowls of wrath of the judgment of God!

 

[atpollard]

What Greek text are you quoting from there?

Luke 22:44 is the verse, but the versions do not seem to matter for the part quoted:
Morphological GNT: 22:44 καὶ γενόμενος ἐν ἀγωνίᾳ ἐκτενέστερον προσηύχετο καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος καταβαίνοντες ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν
Textus Receptus: 22:44 καὶ γενόμενος ἐν ἀγωνίᾳ ἐκτενέστερον προσηύχετο· ἐγένετο δὲ ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος καταβαίνοντες ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν

 

[37818]

What Greek text are you quoting from there?

. . . ωσει θρομβοι αιματος καταβαινοντες επι upon την γην.

I am not aware of any textual variant in Luke 22:44.

 

[Van]

. . . ωσει θρομβοι αιματος καταβαινοντες επι upon την γην.

I am not aware of any textual variant in Luke 22:44.

NET Footnote on Luke 22:43-44
113tc Several important Greek mss (Ě75 א1 A B N T W 579 1071*) along with diverse and widespread versional witnesses lack 22:43-44. In addition, the verses are placed after Matt 26:39 by Ë13. Floating texts typically suggest both spuriousness and early scribal impulses to regard the verses as historically authentic. These verses are included in א*,2 D L Θ Ψ 0171 Ë1 Ď lat Ju Ir Hipp Eus. However, a number of mss mark the text with an asterisk or obelisk, indicating the scribe’s assessment of the verses as inauthentic. At the same time, these verses generally fit Luke’s style. Arguments can be given on both sides about whether scribes would tend to include or omit such comments about Jesus’ humanity and an angel’s help. But even if the verses are not literarily authentic, they are probably historically authentic. This is due to the fact that this text was well known in several different locales from a very early period. Since there are no synoptic parallels to this account and since there is no obvious reason for adding these words here, it is very likely that such verses recount a part of the actual suffering of our Lord. Nevertheless, because of the serious doubts as to these verses’ authenticity, they have been put in brackets. For an important discussion of this problem, see B. D. Ehrman and M. A. Plunkett, “The Angel and the Agony: The Textual Problem of Luke 22:43-44,” CBQ 45 (1983): 401-16.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Think that this really shows us how much pressure was upon our Lord at that point in time, as he was now facing up to the truth of he was shortly to take upon Himself the bowls of wrath of the judgment of God!

Exactly so. We read that an angel was dispatched from heaven to comfort the Lord in His agony; there would be no such angel at Golgotha. But I do wonder what that angel did; certainly he didn't make all the bad stuff go away. 'And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly.' And on a night when it was cold enough for a fire to be lit in the high priest's courtyard (Luke 22:55), our Lord sweated copiously; the psychosomatic response of a human to impending trauma. Whether the sweat was 'like' drops of blood in appearance only or actual drops mixed with sweat is less important to me. The condition is not unknown and would have been of interest to Luke, being a doctor.

 

[37818]

NET Footnote on Luke 22:43-44
113tc Several important Greek mss (Ě75 א1 A B N T W 579 1071*) along with diverse and widespread versional witnesses lack 22:43-44. In addition, the verses are placed after Matt 26:39 by Ë13. Floating texts typically suggest both spuriousness and early scribal impulses to regard the verses as historically authentic. These verses are included in א*,2 D L Θ Ψ 0171 Ë1 Ď lat Ju Ir Hipp Eus. However, a number of mss mark the text with an asterisk or obelisk, indicating the scribe’s assessment of the verses as inauthentic. At the same time, these verses generally fit Luke’s style. Arguments can be given on both sides about whether scribes would tend to include or omit such comments about Jesus’ humanity and an angel’s help. But even if the verses are not literarily authentic, they are probably historically authentic. This is due to the fact that this text was well known in several different locales from a very early period. Since there are no synoptic parallels to this account and since there is no obvious reason for adding these words here, it is very likely that such verses recount a part of the actual suffering of our Lord. Nevertheless, because of the serious doubts as to these verses’ authenticity, they have been put in brackets. For an important discussion of this problem, see B. D. Ehrman and M. A. Plunkett, “The Angel and the Agony: The Textual Problem of Luke 22:43-44,” CBQ 45 (1983): 401-16.

Only 0.9% of the manuscript evidence omits the reading. 0.4% have it after Matthew 26:39. The reading in Luke 22:43-44 has 98.7% manuscript support.

 

[percho]

I might would dove tailed L 43 following Matt 39 and then L 44 following Matt 42.

Was Jesus in this prayer, striving against temptation unto sin?

Mat 26: 40,41
And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly so. We read that an angel was dispatched from heaven to comfort the Lord in His agony; there would be no such angel at Golgotha. But I do wonder what that angel did; certainly he didn't make all the bad stuff go away. 'And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly.' And on a night when it was cold enough for a fire to be lit in the high priest's courtyard (Luke 22:55), our Lord sweated copiously; the psychosomatic response of a human to impending trauma. Whether the sweat was 'like' drops of blood in appearance only or actual drops mixed with sweat is less important to me. The condition is not unknown and would have been of interest to Luke, being a doctor.

Our Lord was facing the truth that when he partook of that Cup of wrath, would be under judgement of the Father, and thus face being forsaken!

 

[Van]

Only 0.9% of the manuscript evidence omits the reading. 0.4% have it after Matthew 26:39. The reading in Luke 22:43-44 has 98.7% manuscript support.

How many of the 98.7% mark the verses with an asterisk or obelisk? How many "versional witnesses" are missing the verses?

A literally authentic text was part of the inspired text, a historically authentic text accurately provides an account not included in the inspired text. Thus the brackets, flagging the text as questionable.

 

[percho]

How many of the 98.7% mark the verses with an asterisk or obelisk? How many "versional witnesses" are missing the verses?

A literally authentic text was part of the inspired text, a historically authentic text accurately provides an account not included in the inspired text. Thus the brackets, flagging the text as questionable.

How do we know what was in the inspired text? BTW my ? in post 34 I believe is relative to whether or not 43,44 would be in the inspired text.

In this prayer of the Son of God unto the Father was the Son striving against sin? Was he under temptation of being obedient unto death even the death of the cross?

and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8
through being Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:8

Was the Son of God striving against sin?

 

[John of Japan]

Ok. Most commentors are wrong. Or else the Greek word translated in Luke 23:44, ". . . as it were . . ." meaning throughout the NT some 21 times [KJV TR 34 times] "like" or "about," is wrongly used by Luke.

I think you mean Luke 22:44.

Actually, Dr. Luke was describing a genuine physical condition called hematidrosis, which is when blood drops actually mix with the sweat. This condition is brought about by great stress, which is certainly what Jesus was experiencing.

As for the Greek word there, it is hosei, and its usage does not mean that there was not blood mixed in with the sweat, it simply means that with the blood mixed in, the drops of sweat looked like blood but were still basically sweat. A. T. Robertson points out, "As it were great drops of blood (hôsei thromboi haimatos). Thick, clotted blood. An old word (thromboi) common in medical works, but here only in the N.T. This passage (verses Lu 22:43,44) is absent from some ancient documents. Aristotle speaks of a bloody sweat as does Theophrastus" (Word Pictures in the NT, accessed through PowerBible).

 

[John of Japan]

Sweat is a thin, clear liquid that forms tiny droplets. Blood is a thick, red liquid that clots into large drops.

Why would anyone ever draw a comparison between the two if Jesus just sweat ... well sweat?

Hematidrosis, blood in the sweat due to great stress.

 

[John of Japan]

I interpret this passage quite differently than the traditional view that He was asking here not to die on the cross. Note the following facts:

1. The bloody sweat indicated extreme stress, a condition called hematidrosis, as I've already pointed out. It is possible to actually die from this. The cup of death Jesus was asking for was not to die there in the Garden, where Satan was trying to kill Him.

2. Most importantly, if Jesus did not go to the cross to die, He would become a false prophet. He had prophesied several times that He would die on the cross. Here is such a prophecy in Matthew 20:18-29. "Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again."

3. According to Heb. 5:7, when He prayed not to die (which could only have occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane), His prayer was answered. "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared." Therefore, in the Garden He could not have been praying not to die on the cross.