In the world but not of the world

[salzer mtn]

I will not go through the bible to gather scripture in my defence therefore pitting scripture against scripture, but one scripture does come to mind. Lean not unto thine own understanding but in all thy ways acknowledge him and he will direct thy footsteps. You ask me if i have ever cried out in a moment of dispair. It breaks my heart every day to see my children and grand children living a life that's contrary to God. The burden is so great at times it makes me sluggish in body. I know if God don't save them they will go to hell. Everyone has to bare a burden of some kind.

 

[annsni]

People that don't believe God is sovereign over all thing will question God, question themselves, question circumstances and drive themselves crazy when a great trial comes in their life. I think it is best when a person cannot understand the answers to keep quiet and say in their heart, not my will but thine be done.

Again, I guess you have never faced a hard trial.

 

[salzer mtn]

Again, I guess you have never faced a hard trial.

Not to appear as a smart know it all but when you have to bury a dad knowing by the life he lived he went to hell, the loss of natural life pales in comparrison to lossing a person to spiritual death.

 

[12strings]

I cannot imagine someone saved writing a song and referring to the King of all the earth as sweet jesus. He must have been drunk when he wrote it.

42 As the deer pants for the water brooks,
So my soul pants for You, O God.
2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God;
When shall I come and appear before God?

Would the writer of this psalm have said God was "sweet" to him? I don't know for sure, but I don't think we can categorically say no.

I really think you are getting to hung up on specific words: I, Me, Us.

Those words are not sinful, they are all throughout the Bible , especially the psalms, as people describe their relationship with God and God's relationship to them...because God is not just "out there" to be recognized...he has also condescended to relate to humans.

One more psalm:

My heart and my flesh sing for joy to the living God.

If I were today, write a song that said:
-My soul PANTS FOR YOU!
-MY FLESH sings!

...it would likely get criticized for being too fleshly or man-centered, or to emotional...but it is exactly what you find in scripture.


AND FINALLY...even if you disagree with everything I've just said, there are many TRUE christians who, perhaps, don't know the correct words to use when praising God, and so they do the best they can...so those of us with more knowledge can come along side and correct them at times...WHEN WE HAVE A BIBLICAL WARRANT to do so. So, even if I think some song is sappy, or approaches God in an irreverent way (which I defintely think is out there)...I can't say the person who wrote it wasn't saved.

 

[salzer mtn]

These two songs written by Kris Kristofferson at the hight of his carrier when he was a party going booze drinking woman chasing drug attick. I do not believe these songs were inspired by God at all. I don't think God is so deperate to have to use a Hollywood icon to write God praising songs. 12 strings you have taken the words I me and us and have twisted my meaning into something entirely different than what i meant, or maybe i didn't make myself clear enough. I have been in conversations with professed christians before and their speech betrays their proffesion. They are like used car salesmen that promote themselves instead of God. It's all about them, what they have accomplished for the cause of Christ. How many souls they have won, how many people go to their church and so on. Beware of people like this, God is their belly, everyone that sayeth Lord Lord shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye shall know them by the fruit that they bare, and this includes conversation. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh Matt 12:34.

 

[salzer mtn]

1. O savior, as my eyes behold the wonders of thy might untold, The heav'ns in glorious light arrayed, The vast creation Thou hast made. And yet to think Thou lovest me My heart cries out how can it be? Chorus: How can it be? How can it be? That God should love a soul like me, O how can it be? 2. As at the cross i humbly bow and gaze upon They thorn crowned brow. and view the precious bleeding form by cruel nails so bruised and torn, Knowing thy suffereing was for me, in grief i cry, How can it be? Chorus: How can it be? How can it be? That God should love a soul like me, O how can it be? 3. How can it be? how can it be? Was ever grace so full and free. Fom heights of bliss to depts of woe In loving kindness Thou didst go, From sin and shame to rescue me O love divine, How can it be? Chorus: How can it be? How can it be? that God should love a soul like me, O how can it be?

 

[Bronconagurski]

People that don't believe God is sovereign over all thing will question God, question themselves, question circumstances and drive themselves crazy when a great trial comes in their life. I think it is best when a person cannot understand the answers to keep quiet and say in their heart, not my will but thine be done.

When trials and testing come, we have clear instructions from the book of James. God does not rebuke us when we question Him in trials. In fact, He asks us to do it.

James 1:2-8 (ISV)
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when you are involved in various trials,
3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 But you must let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.
5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him.
6 But he must ask in faith, without any doubts, for the one who has doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
7 Such a person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
8 He is a double-minded person, unstable in all he undertakes.

God does a work in our lives thru trials by maturing us in certain areas, and be sure that He wants us to know what those areas are.

 

[salzer mtn]

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. If i question God about every thing that he does in my life, where is my faith that i am supposed to believe he won't put on me more than i can bare. Should i question God if i lose a love one, or do i believe that death comes to everyone alike and we don't have a promise that we will live to a ripe old age. He causeth the sunshine and the rain to fall on the just as well as the unjust. If God is Lord of my life then he is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Either i have put my trust in him or i haven't. What did Christ tell Thomas? You see and believe but more blessed is he that seeth not, yet believeth. Shall i reprove God by my questions when something goes wrong ? Shall my un-belief instruct God unto contention? Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter anything before God: For God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few, Ecc 5:2.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. If i question God about every thing that he does in my life, where is my faith that i am supposed to believe he won't put on me more than i can bare. Should i question God if i lose a love one, or do i believe that death comes to everyone alike and we don't have a promise that we will live to a ripe old age. He causeth the sunshine and the rain to fall on the just as well as the unjust. If God is Lord of my life then he is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Either i have put my trust in him or i haven't. What did Christ tell Thomas? You see and believe but more blessed is he that seeth not, yet believeth. Shall i reprove God by my questions when something goes wrong ? Shall my un-belief instruct God unto contention? Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter anything before God: For God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few, Ecc 5:2.

God did not tell us to question about everything. Losing a loved one is not a trial per se, as it happens to us all. But you can not ignore (well, I guess you can, because you did not respond) that God sends trials and expects us to learn from Him be asking for wisdom. You seem to think you have God in your little box, but he is bigger than your opinions. Furthermore, God expects us to come to Him when we battle temptations, which, btw, is the same Greek word for trials in James. Here is what He tells us to do there:

Hebrews 4:14-16 (HCSB)
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens—Jesus the Son of God—let us hold fast to the confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us at the proper time.

You seem to be sitting in judgement of anyone that has doubts, or wonders why, or has problems with faith, but God does not, praise His Holy Name. God lets us know that He is approachable, and He is full of grace, mercy and wisdom, and He is more than ready to share it with all those who will ask in faith. Furthermore, God has promised help for us when we don't know how to pray, or what to do: Romans 8:26-30 (HCSB)
26 In the same way the Spirit also joins to help in our weakness, because we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings.
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

 

[salzer mtn]

The problem as i see it is not going to God in prayer over your personal trials or temptations but to display your confussions or problems or mis-understandings about God openly is a problem in a persons life they need to clean up. Will i cause the enemies of Christ to point a finger at christianity and say he is only a christian on a sunny day but look at his un-belief when the clouds roll in. I will not sing gospel songs that are not God honoring songs. If you meet me on the street and ask how i'm doing, you will not get me to complain about my lot in life. I will give you a answer that all is well with me because i view the big picture. These light afflictions we have down here are not worthy to even be mentioned or compaired with the glory that shall be reveiled in us. Sorry if my positive attitude offends you.

 

[OldRegular]

Studying music appreciation at Luther Rice this semester. Just got done reading about the change in church musical styles in the late 1600's and early 1700's to hymns. An argument much like this was used for any suggested change.

A Particular Baptist minister, Benjamin Keach, in 1673, for the first time convinced his congregation to sing a hymn at the end of communion based on the gospel account of the last supper. Almost split the Particular Baptists the controversy was so great. Hymns then didn't even have musical accompaniment.

It was silly then, and it's silly now. Nothing more than people believing their way is God's way and hating change.

Is there any example in the New Testament of musical instruments being used in worship? Does worshipping in spirit and truth require musical instruments? Is there any evidence that musical instruments were used in worship in the early Church?

 

[Bronconagurski]

The problem as i see it is not going to God in prayer over your personal trials or temptations but to display your confussions or problems or mis-understandings about God openly is a problem in a persons life they need to clean up. Will i cause the enemies of Christ to point a finger at christianity and say he is only a christian on a sunny day but look at his un-belief when the clouds roll in. I will not sing gospel songs that are not God honoring songs. If you meet me on the street and ask how i'm doing, you will not get me to complain about my lot in life. I will give you a answer that all is well with me because i view the big picture. These light afflictions we have down here are not worthy to even be mentioned or compaired with the glory that shall be reveiled in us. Sorry if my positive attitude offends you.

First, I don't get positive from your posts, quite the opposite. Next, we were talking about going to God, not lost people, yet now you change gears. I admit I am having a hard time following you. Nowhere have you seen me post to go to other people, much less lost people. I have repeatedly given the scriptures and what God says about trials and prayer.

What you describe to me above seems more like fatalism than faith. Of course, that is my opinion, just like you have yours.

 

[salzer mtn]

The problem as i see it is not going to God in prayer over your personal trials or temptations but to display your confussions or problems or mis-understandings about God openly is a problem in a persons life they need to clean up. Will i cause the enemies of Christ to point a finger at christianity and say he is only a christian on a sunny day but look at his un-belief when the clouds roll in. I will not sing gospel songs that are not God honoring songs. If you meet me on the street and ask how i'm doing, you will not get me to complain about my lot in life. I will give you a answer that all is well with me because i view the big picture. These light afflictions we have down here are not worthy to even be mentioned or compaired with the glory that shall be reveiled in us. Sorry if my positive attitude offends you.

As i re-read my post i didn't accuse you of saying, go to the lost with your problems. Some people by what they believe about God don't question God in prayer as some other people do. What you believe about God will direct your life. If i don't believe God will keep me, and i have to do good works to keep myself i will stay on my knees and never get up. If i don't believe a good man's steps is ordered by the Lord then every obstacle in my life that i can't figure out i will want a sign or something from God. There are some things in this life we have to walk by faith and not sight. When a person gets on a board or in a church service or goes to people and air's out their problems of, i can't get peace or an answer to prayer, then what positive affect will this have on anyone? Are we to live as defeated christians all our life ?

 

[MB]

I have a question to pose to the group regarding separation from the world....

When is the church too much like the world? Or to put it another way, shouldn't the church be distinguishable from the world?

Yes it should

If we imitate all of the worlds forms of "music" then are we staying separate?

I am asking for honest opinions here. In sending our daughter to a Christian school we thought to protect her from some of the worst influences in our society, yet the music teacher gave the class an assignment to create and perform a gospel RAP. As we know this is a ghetto form of music, and most often associated with extremely bad influences. What are your thoughts?

The influencing of your child is going to happen. Unfortunantly there isn't a whole lot we can do about it. We can't lock them up in solitary confinement to prevent it. This is what you would have to do to keep them from being exposed to it eventually. What is really important is what you teach them your self.
scripture says;
Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
This is the best we can do, the rest is hope.
MB

 

[12strings]

Is there any example in the New Testament of musical instruments being used in worship? Does worshipping in spirit and truth require musical instruments? Is there any evidence that musical instruments were used in worship in the early Church?

Examples in the NT? No.

Does worship require instruments? No.

Early Church Evidence? I don't know.

Examples & commands to use musical instruments in the OT? Yes.

NT prohibition, or anything resembling a statement that says instruments are now forbidden? No.

 

[annsni]

Not to appear as a smart know it all but when you have to bury a dad knowing by the life he lived he went to hell, the loss of natural life pales in comparrison to lossing a person to spiritual death.

Did that bring you to a point of literally not being able to breathe?

Hearing that my daughter had a softball sized tumor in her pancreas did for me. I cried out to God with words that I don't even know. "Sweet Jesus" would be the least of them!

 

[OldRegular]

Examples in the NT? No.

Does worship require instruments? No.

Early Church Evidence? I don't know.

Examples & commands to use musical instruments in the OT? Yes.

NT prohibition, or anything resembling a statement that says instruments are now forbidden? No.

Worship in the New Testament is totally different than worship in the Old Testament. We no longer offer blood sacrifices as part of worship unless you are Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

 

[Dave]

The influencing of your child is going to happen. Unfortunantly there isn't a whole lot we can do about it. We can't lock them up in solitary confinement to prevent it. This is what you would have to do to keep them from being exposed to it eventually. What is really important is what you teach them your self.
scripture says;
Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
This is the best we can do, the rest is hope.
MB

Agreed that it is ultimately the parent's responsibility to train up the child, and of course, solitary confinement is out of the question. One does send one's child to a Christian school to try to eliminate or at least bolster correct views on bad influences, as an aid to parents in raising up the child in the way they should go. What I am seeing is that this is not necessarily the way it works these days.

So, yes, it is up to us to try to teach her. Unfortunately how many kids view what they learn in school as correct, and their "dumb" parents as out of touch. The best we can hope to do is to teach and pray that the Lord will keep them from error.

Now my own views on music is that it is a tragic mistake for churches to throw out the old hymns that are so full of sound biblical doctrine, in favor of 7-11 choruses (7 words sung 11 times) and such, or worse put a "praise band" up in front who is more concerned about their own music than actually leading the church in worshiping the Lord.

Still, I wouldn't raise the issue with more modern Christian music being taught outside of a church setting, I simply see Rap as something way beyond the boundaries of appropriateness. Rap does not have melody, but only beat. It is most often associated with destructive messages, and commonly performed by people dressed in "hoodlum" garb. Beat typically generates movement. Melody helps the mind absorb the words, provided it doesn't drown them out or make them indistinguishable. I know there are many who would disagree with this assessment, but I do believe there is merit in it.

This thread has certainly been interesting reading, and I want to thank everyone who has responded so far.

 

[12strings]

Worship in the New Testament is totally different than worship in the Old Testament. We no longer offer blood sacrifices as part of worship unless you are Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

This is exactly right...except for the word "totally". The are of course similarities...we worship the same God, albeit through the Risen Christ, and we sing, pray, give attention to hearing God's word...

 

[Arbo]

A person can step into a church and listen to what songs the congregation sings and pretty much tell you what they believe in doctrine.

Oh, really? :tonofbricks: