In the world but not of the world

[salzer mtn]

Oh, really? :tonofbricks:

Yea, really.

 

[salzer mtn]

Did that bring you to a point of literally not being able to breathe?

Hearing that my daughter had a softball sized tumor in her pancreas did for me. I cried out to God with words that I don't even know. "Sweet Jesus" would be the least of them!

I am truly sorry for your loss, i cannot imagine what you went through.

 

[12strings]

A few thoughts...

Now my own views on music is that it is a tragic mistake for churches to throw out the old hymns that are so full of sound biblical doctrine,

AGREED! Young people need to know they are not the first one's to understand worship.

in favor of 7-11 choruses (7 words sung 11 times) and such, or worse put a "praise band" up in front who is more concerned about their own music than actually leading the church in worshiping the Lord.

[/QUOTE]

Here is where we differ...(except for the 7-11 choruses...there are good new songs and bad new songs...and everything in between. There are enough good songs that we can be choosy and use the best ones)...

...I agree that we should not put either a praise band, single song leader, pianist, or an organist up front who is more concerned about their own music than leading the congregation in worship. But the very presence of a guitar/Bass/Drums does not necessarily mean that is what's going on.

Still, I wouldn't raise the issue with more modern Christian music being taught outside of a church setting, I simply see Rap as something way beyond the boundaries of appropriateness. Rap does not have melody, but only beat. It is most often associated with destructive messages, and commonly performed by people dressed in "hoodlum" garb. Beat typically generates movement. Melody helps the mind absorb the words, provided it doesn't drown them out or make them indistinguishable. I know there are many who would disagree with this assessment, but I do believe there is merit in it.

[/QUOTE]

1. There is merit in warning of the unhelpful associations of rap music...but I believe it can be used in God-honoring ways...in the right settings, and with a solidly humble, mission-minded person.

2. I would say that music with a beat does make us want to move, which is not necessariy a bad thing. they types of movements and what they suggest is the problem...very young toddlers bounce up and down when hearing nearly any music...I don't think they are sinning.

3. My reasons for being willing to accept and not condemn new music is based on a strong belief that I should not call something sinful that the bible does not call sinful. (Sufficiency of scripture arguments).

 

[salzer mtn]

3. My reasons for being willing to accept and not condemn new music is based on a strong belief that I should not call something sinful that the bible does not call sinful. (Sufficiency of scripture arguments).

The bible does not mention a tv set but the majarity of programs shown on them are not fit to look at. David said, I will set no wicked thing before my eyes, Psa 101:3 Another example: Cigerettes are not mentioned in the bible but look at the damage it does to your body. So is it a sin to destroy my body? 1 Cor 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth ANY THING to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

 

[annsni]

I am truly sorry for your loss, i cannot imagine what you went through.

Actually, she was healed. She's now almost 23 and doing great.

But from the time she got her diagnosis to the time that she was healed was the longest month of my life. She was dying and even the best doctors in the country didn't know how to fix her. It was unbelievably hard.

 

[salzer mtn]

Actually, she was healed. She's now almost 23 and doing great.

But from the time she got her diagnosis to the time that she was healed was the longest month of my life. She was dying and even the best doctors in the country didn't know how to fix her. It was unbelievably hard.

Glad to hear that. I once was told of a woman that lost her child to cancer and another woman told the mother, if you would have had more faith, the child would have lived. The mother replied, i think it takes more faith in God to give them up to him than keep them.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Glad to hear that. I once was told of a woman that lost her child to cancer and another woman told the mother, if you would have had more faith, the child would have lived. The mother replied, i think it takes more faith in God to give them up to him than keep them.

My grandmother lived to be 92. Her only son, my uncle, died when I was 3 months old. I was named after him. Her husband died a few years later. My mom, 1 of 2 daughters, died when I was 6. My grandmother spent all her years praising God in heaven and asking us to be saved, and praying for all her grandchildren. She always quoted Romans 8: 28 to me, and she did after losing all her loved ones I am told. Yes, she mourned, but she knew where her loved ones were, and she went to see them. She was intrumental in my salvation, along with my other grandmother as they witnessed to me in my youth. She was the first person I called after I got saved in my 20's, and she shouted to the heavens when I told her. She was real, and she loved God and never said a word against Him nor blame Him for anything. But I have to imagine when she was alone with God, she asked him why. I don't think that is blasphemous, nor sinful. I think He gave her the answer, and that is what she told to others.

 

[annsni]

Glad to hear that. I once was told of a woman that lost her child to cancer and another woman told the mother, if you would have had more faith, the child would have lived. The mother replied, i think it takes more faith in God to give them up to him than keep them.

Amen to that mother!! We were ready to lose her. It would have been devastating but we would not have trusted God any less if we lost her than having her healed. Even just through the diagnosis in the early days, the doctors were asking our friend who was the head nurse on the floor why we weren't hysterical and it gave her an opportunity to tell them about our faith. It was so not an easy time and there were times that even my groanings didn't make sense but I knew God was in control and He knew my heart. "Sweet Jesus" was at least words! Mine were more like wails from the heart.

 

[12strings]

The bible does not mention a tv set but the majarity of programs shown on them are not fit to look at. David said, I will set no wicked thing before my eyes, Psa 101:3 Another example: Cigerettes are not mentioned in the bible but look at the damage it does to your body. So is it a sin to destroy my body? 1 Cor 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth ANY THING to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

These are all good examples...discernment is needed. However it would support my point that the content of the music is what we need to evaluate, not the instruments used or the number of beats per minute...those things don't carry immorality in them...just as most people would say black & white TV is good, but color TV is evil.

But please understand where I am coming from (and all of the below is absolutely true)...in the church I grew up in, the Pastor preached that:
...women should not wear pants ever.
...A preacher should only preach in a coat & tie & WHITE shirt (no blue or brown shirts)
...No going to a movie theater (renting a movie for your home is OK).
...the sanctuary is holy and should not be used for youth activities.
...drum sets and rock music are demonic.

Coming out of that, and seeing the impact of this man's preaching & lifestyle..I have come to firmly believe that it is very dangerous for someone to call something sinful that scripture does not call sinful. Of course there are biblical principles that inform things not spoken of in scripture (lusting after a woman in real life is a sin just like lusting after a woman on a computer screen)...but if I am going to tell someone they are sinning, I'd better have a good biblical argument for it.

 

[salzer mtn]

These are all good examples...discernment is needed. However it would support my point that the content of the music is what we need to evaluate, not the instruments used or the number of beats per minute...those things don't carry immorality in them...just as most people would say black & white TV is good, but color TV is evil.

But please understand where I am coming from (and all of the below is absolutely true)...in the church I grew up in, the Pastor preached that:
...women should not wear pants ever.
...A preacher should only preach in a coat & tie & WHITE shirt (no blue or brown shirts)
...No going to a movie theater (renting a movie for your home is OK).
...the sanctuary is holy and should not be used for youth activities.
...drum sets and rock music are demonic.

Coming out of that, and seeing the impact of this man's preaching & lifestyle..I have come to firmly believe that it is very dangerous for someone to call something sinful that scripture does not call sinful. Of course there are biblical principles that inform things not spoken of in scripture (lusting after a woman in real life is a sin just like lusting after a woman on a computer screen)...but if I am going to tell someone they are sinning, I'd better have a good biblical argument for it.

As the scripture say's nothing is unclean of itself but be not decieved: evil communications corrupt good manners, 1 Cor 15:33. Also we are to abstain from all appearance of evil, 1 Thess 5:22. In your list you mentioned rock music, i don't think anything good has ever come out of rock music. We are to seperate ourselves from the world to maintain a good witness to the lost, not to use our liberty in Christ Jesus as a stumbling block to others.

 

[Don]

As the scripture say's nothing is unclean of itself but be not decieved: evil communications corrupt good manners, 1 Cor 15:33. Also we are to abstain from all appearance of evil, 1 Thess 5:22. In your list you mentioned rock music, i don't think anything good has ever come out of rock music. We are to seperate ourselves from the world to maintain a good witness to the lost, not to use our liberty in Christ Jesus as a stumbling block to others.

Here's the problem with that logic, and trying to use scripture to back it up:
If I say TV is corrupt, then why isn't radio? Or magazines or newspapers? If I can say that some magazines are okay, then I can certainly say that some TV shows are okay.

If I say that nothing good has ever come out of rock music, then what about opera? Have you ever considered just how much "fleshly" stuff is discussed in opera? How about classical music? There are compositions that are considered in the "classical" genre that are solely focused on the dis-harmonic chords, and leave you feeling "dark" and "disquieted."

How about tools? Most people use reciprocating saws to construct houses for the poor and needy; but it's been told to me that others use the tool for deviant purposes (I will not elaborate). Should I not use reciprocating saws at all?

Or guns? Some people use guns to murder others; shouldn't we preach against *all* guns, because they've been used for evil purposes?

Isn't the true litmus test my motivations and how I use something? If I use TV, classical and rock music, guns, whatever for the glory of God, where does scripture condemn this?

 

[jbh28]

The Bible defines what "world" means

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

We are to be separated from sin.

 

[12strings]

As the scripture say's nothing is unclean of itself but be not decieved: evil communications corrupt good manners, 1 Cor 15:33. Also we are to abstain from all appearance of evil, 1 Thess 5:22. In your list you mentioned rock music, i don't think anything good has ever come out of rock music. We are to seperate ourselves from the world to maintain a good witness to the lost, not to use our liberty in Christ Jesus as a stumbling block to others.

In addition to Don's good reply...

I'm fully convinced that "eidous" in 1 Thess. 5:22 mean's "FORM", or "Kind." Since Jesus himself did not avoid every "appearance" of evil...he was called a glutton and a drunkard.

I believe we should separate from the world and be different from them in the ways specified by scripture...not in every way we can imagine.

I do think lots of good can come from folk music with simple chord progressions. (where Rock gets its roots). Guitars do not make Come Thou fount Less holy.

I have still never heard an adequate answer to what part of rock music makes it evil. (some say the beat, but what specifically about the beat...all music has beat, and where in scripture are we warned about certain beats?) If I am sitting in my room playing guitar and singing my own version of "O worship the King.", at what point am I sinning?
-when I use the guitar at all?
-When I start strumming at a certain speed?
-When I start tapping my foot along?
-When I invite my friend over to play the Djiembe (hand drum)?


I'm sure we will continue to disagree on this (as if there was ever any doubt). I'm not trying to make you or anyone else here stumble, just hoping some can see what I eventually saw, that man-made rules do not make us more holy, and that within the bounderies of scripture, there is great freedom.

 

[Dave]

It must be the back-beat that is evil. Everyone should know that stressing beats 1 & 3 is orthodox! :laugh:

Seriously, for me it is simply that the church service should be edifying and worshipful, even reverent. If the words are competing with the music, something is getting lost. The words and music together should be edifying.

I am more open to differing types outside the worship service and in mission activities.

If some in the church are offended by the type of music, then the church is not edifying that believer in the musical program.