In What Sense Did Adam And Eve Die?

[JeremyV]

The tree of life is covenantal in nature. It points ultimately to Christ and the "healing of the nation's" in Revelation.

The tree may well have had symbolic meaning, but it was areal tree in the garden of Eden:

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
(Gen 2:9)

And that real tree had very real effects:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."
(Gen 3:22-23)

Mortality apparently existed from the start and the fruit of the tree of life kept man from death.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you cannot kill a spirit so what died? Do you mean separation? Holy Spirit left his soul?

hello jk


59 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 

[Revmitchell]

The tree may well have had symbolic meaning, but it was areal tree in the garden of Eden:

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
(Gen 2:9)

And that real tree had very real effects:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."
(Gen 3:22-23)

Mortality apparently existed from the start and the fruit of the tree of life kept man from death.

Sad that has to be explained.

 

[quantumfaith]

Excellent answer quaff but a look at the Biblical evidence refutes your position.

Biblically the 'narrative' you refer to claims that they were not to partake of the Tree of Life AFTER they experienced spiritual death, not prior to, thus your claim to 'narrative support' that they were not created to live 'physically indefinitely' is a complete misnomer and is in fact Biblically inaccurate.

Note Genesis 3:22.

Perhaps you should adjust your 'I do not believe' to reflect actual Biblical revelation? :thumbs:

Perhaps YOU should read the biblical narrative and revelation. I understand that this might be a challenging intellectual task for you, but with effort you can do it. The "I believe" part is due to the fact that the narrative does not gives us all that information and thus about such things we do the best we can in drawing our conclusions.

 

[Deacon]

There are various aspects to death and various ways it is pictured in scripture; we see both physical death and spiritual death.

But the first mention of death in the bible is not as clear as some might think.

Compare versions:

Genesis 2:16–17 (ESV)
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”


Two phrases stand out when asking the question asked in the Opening Post.
1) "in that day" – Does "day" mean 24 hours? Or is the phrase an idiom meaning "from that very instant" or "from that time"?

2) "surely die" is often overlooked and misinterpreted. The Hebrew text uses the word "die" twice, some literally translate the Hebrew as "dying, you shall die"

Here are two modern translations often used for their stricter adherence to the structural form of the original language. Both authors are Jewish scholars.

Genesis 2:16–17 (The Five Books of Moses – Everett Fox, 1984, 1995)
YHWH, God, commanded concerning the human, saying: From every (other) tree of the garden you may eat, yes, eat, but from the Tree of the Knowing of Good and Evil— you are not to eat from it, for on the day that you eat from it, you must die, yes, die.

Genesis 2:16–17 (The Five Books of Moses – Robert Alter, 1996, 2004)
And the LORD God commanded the human, saying, "From every fruit of the garden you may surely eat. But from the tree of knowledge, good and evil, you shall not eat, for on the day you eat from it, you are doomed to die."

The understanding is that sin introduced the process of death from the moment it happened.

Paul writes that "sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin" (Romans 5:12), and "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

Is Paul speaking about spiritual or physical death? …or is it less clear?

I believe we see the "spiritual" interpretation of death prominently articulated in Augustinian theology. This is when the idea of "spiritual" death overtook the idea of "physical" death and eclipsed it in many theologians teachings.

Rob

 

[preacher4truth]

I am not sure you fully understood his argument. Why would they need a tree of life if their was no death?

Hello JeremyV,

I in fact do understand his argument and thanks for your remark. In all actuality at times we believe everything spiritual must make logical sense -- and critical thinking is OK. But many times spiritual things do not make logical sense yet are of course nonetheless true. Thus, the tree of life. And to reiterate they were forbidden to partake after their fall and spiritual death lest they live forever.

 

[JeremyV]

Hello JeremyV,

I in fact do understand his argument and thanks for your remark. In all actuality at times we believe everything spiritual must make logical sense -- and critical thinking is OK. But many times spiritual things do not make logical sense yet are of course nonetheless true. Thus, the tree of life. And to reiterate they were forbidden to partake after their fall and spiritual death lest they live forever.

Then perhaps it is I that am misunderstanding your argument. Was it not the tree of life that was keeping them alive (physically) in the Garden of Eden and not their lack of sin? Perhaps you could further explain your position.

 

[Reformed]

The tree may well have had symbolic meaning, but it was areal tree in the garden of Eden:

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
(Gen 2:9)

And that real tree had very real effects:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."
(Gen 3:22-23)

Mortality apparently existed from the start and the fruit of the tree of life kept man from death.

I agree that it was a real tree with real, tangible benefits to those who would eat of it. But I also believe, based on Scripture, that the tree's purpose is fulfilled in Christ and during the eternal state (Rev. 22:2).

As far as the existence of mortality in the pre-fallen Garden, I previously pointed out that death was a warning given to Adam had he eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17). The inference is strong. Eat of tree and die. Do not eat of the tree and live. This is precisely why I believe the tree of life is covenantal and its purpose fulfilled ultimately in Christ. God intended for the tree to yield its benefits. He did not intend for man to live eternally simply because he refrained from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[preacher4truth]

Then perhaps it is I that am misunderstanding your argument. Was it not the tree of life that was keeping them alive (physically) in the Garden of Eden and not their lack of sin? Perhaps you could further explain your position.

Hello again JeremyV.

It seems to be understood I in fact did not misunderstand quaffs argument, and that again, in fact, Scripture refutes his argument.

That said you've asked a great question, and yes, you've misunderstood the position on Scripture that I've taken. They were forbidden to eat and live forever after their fall. This tends to make a silent statement about them prior to the fall that they would never die, either spiritually or physically.

But I do believe this: They would experience both spiritual and physical death after their fall into sin, and indeed they did experience both.

I'm interested in your answer to your above questioning, a question I've not asked as of yet, but am being asked to answer and I can understand why.

Can you answer your own question above brother? Was it the Tree of Life 'keepin them alive'? As I stated, great question. :thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Whilst they had daily communion with God, the had access to the Tree of Life. Whether they had to eat of it to keep them alive is something the bible is silent about.

Once they sinned, they lost their daily communion with God and were thrusted out of the Garden, and also the Tree of Life.


Any more than that would be nothing more than conjecture on my part....

 

[quantumfaith]

Whilst they had daily communion with God, the had access to the Tree of Life. Whether they had to eat of it to keep them alive is something the bible is silent about.

Once they sinned, they lost their daily communion with God and were thrusted out of the Garden, and also the Tree of Life.


Any more than that would be nothing more than conjecture on my part....

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

And there is plenty of "conjecture" around here on all sides of an issue.

 

[The Biblicist]

Romans 5:12 is the only scripture that specifically deals with the origin of death in this world. Paul does not say that death entered the world "by creation" and thus a natural part, but by sin. Hence, so much for the "bug" theory.

The issue is how do you define "death." Is death anihilation? Is death "separation"? I believe "death" is "separation." First, it is separation from spiritual union with God - spiritual death - which occurred on the "day" he sinned as "death entered the world" by sin. Physical death is due to separation of the immaterial from the material aspects of human nature. Eternal death is separation of a united material and immaterial man in the lake of fire forever - separated from God's manifest presence in the new heaven and earth.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a dream fulfilled is a tree of life.

 

[JeremyV]

I agree that it was a real tree with real, tangible benefits to those who would eat of it. But I also believe, based on Scripture, that the tree's purpose is fulfilled in Christ and during the eternal state (Rev. 22:2).

As far as the existence of mortality in the pre-fallen Garden, I previously pointed out that death was a warning given to Adam had he eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17). The inference is strong. Eat of tree and die. Do not eat of the tree and live. This is precisely why I believe the tree of life is covenantal and its purpose fulfilled ultimately in Christ. God intended for the tree to yield its benefits. He did not intend for man to live eternally simply because he refrained from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You bring up an interesting point, was man intended to live forever if the fall had never happened? I will have to consider this.

Hello again JeremyV.

It seems to be understood I in fact did not misunderstand quaffs argument, and that again, in fact, Scripture refutes his argument.

That said you've asked a great question, and yes, you've misunderstood the position on Scripture that I've taken. They were forbidden to eat and live forever after their fall. This tends to make a silent statement about them prior to the fall that they would never die, either spiritually or physically.

But I do believe this: They would experience both spiritual and physical death after their fall into sin, and indeed they did experience both.

I'm interested in your answer to your above questioning, a question I've not asked as of yet, but am being asked to answer and I can understand why.

Can you answer your own question above brother? Was it the Tree of Life 'keepin them alive'? As I stated, great question. :thumbs:

I cannot answer that at this time. I have been given a lot to think about.