In what way is the unbeliever "free"?

[Daniel David]

One of the greatest passages that support the fact that believers no longer have to obey sin is found in Romans 6:14:

HCSB - For sin will not rule over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

Now, the reason the redeemed do not have to obey sin is because of the fact that grace now rules over them. This is NOT true of the unbeliever. He must obey sin. So where is freewill? Since sin is the master of an unbeliever, can he choose another master? Not according to Scripture.

In fact, I want to question Jesus about the issue. Jesus, it is said that a person can of his own freewill choose to follow you. Is this true?

Jesus responded, "I assure you: Everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. A slave does not remain in the household forever, but a son does remain forever. Therefore if the Son sets you free, you really will be free."

Thank you Lord. So according to you, you must set a person free in order for them to be free and exercise free will?

Jesus said, "I speak what I have seen in the presence of the Father."

[ June 27, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: PreachtheWord ]

 

[Hardsheller]

The Unbeliever is able to sin and unable to not sin.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The unbeliever needs no special, volley of Spirit directed drawing in order to come to Christ. Revelation 22:17 is still the Word of God. The Holy Spirit says, Come. The church beckons come. Anyone hearing the invitation can and should say, Come. Anyone who thirst for Jesus is to ‘take' of the water of eternal life, freely. Does anyone still think that only the frozen chosen were and are called? I hope not!

The atonement has been eternally made and has been placed on ‘the mercy seat' in Heaven. Probably not just on the edges . . . . For 2,002 years under the New Covenant alone, the offer has been made for sinners to return to God. ‘For God so loved the WORLD, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.' All glory be to Christ for His perfect plan for all of His humanity. Lest anyone pick up on a loose end, I will also say that the Old Covenant saints were also saved through His atonement, because we know that His blood was effective toward those who believe, ever since before the foundation of the world was created.

God's desire was that ' . . . all men honor the Son.' He could not make this assessment and statement in John 5:23 if He did not mean what He said.

 

[Ray Berrian]

' . . . taking' suggests, strongly that human beings are free to choose their final destiny. [Revelation 22:17] He can't take the water for us; we must take action on His invitation and command.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Does anyone still think that only the frozen chosen were and are called? I hope not!

Guess I'll have to disappoint you to a certain extent, Ray. All who hear the gospel truly proclaimed hear a general call but only the elect hear the effectual call. Another way to say this is that many are called(the general call), but few are chosen(the effectual call).

And to back my submission with Scripture, I'll quote my Savior:

(Mat 22:14 NKJV) "For many are called, but few are chosen."

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
' . . . taking' suggests, strongly that human beings are free to choose their final destiny. [Revelation 22:17] He can't take the water for us; we must take action on His invitation and command.

Taken by whose power - God's or man's? If you are saying man's, then I must disagree with you. The Bible says it is God's power.

(1 Cor 2:4-5 NKJV) And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, {5} that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

(1 Cor 6:14 NKJV) And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

(2 Cor 4:7 NKJV) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.

(Eph 1:19 NKJV) and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power

(Eph 2:1 NKJV) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

(Eph 2:5 NKJV) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Taken by whose power - God's or man's? If you are saying man's, then I must disagree with you. The Bible says it is God's power.

(1 Cor 2:4-5 NKJV) And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, {5} that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Says nothing about man not being able to choose. Man can choose and God can still be powerful. Indeed, a man must choose between the ways of man and the ways of God.

(1 Cor 6:14 NKJV) And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Man's choice is not limited by the fact that God does the raising. Man having a choice doesn't mean man is raising himself.

(2 Cor 4:7 NKJV) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.

Exactly - God does all the saving. Man just does the choosing.

(Eph 1:19 NKJV) and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power

Yep. He works once we choose.

(Eph 2:1 NKJV) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

And we're quickened by the Holy Spirit - enlightened, even.

(Eph 2:5 NKJV) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

See above.

None of these passages deny man a choice at all.

 

[Daniel David]

Scott and Ray, you both failed to deal with what I said about Romans 6:14 and the quote of Christ from John 8:31-34. Please don't make this another nonscriptural argument. I have presented Scripture. If you think I am wrong, please exegete it yourself.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Scott Emmerson,

That Floridian sun apparently is making you think correctly. I wish some others would get some true light from the Son.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
[qb](2 Cor 4:7 NKJV) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.

Exactly - God does all the saving. Man just does the choosing.

Now you have me confused, Scott. Are you agreeing with me(and the Bible) that man's choosing has nothing to do with the saving? Are you agreeing with me(and the Bible) that the saving is all by God's sovereign grace?

All I can say is, "Wow!"

One whom God did the saving of,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ June 28, 2002, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

"The Bible verse for this Sunday's memory work is ‘Many are called but few chosen..' Please, remember it by next Sunday school session."

This is a simplistic interpretation of this Scripture offered up by our brothers. Actually, it wasn't even explained.

We are disallowed from pulling verses out of context in order to plug up the holes in our theology.

Matthew 20:1-16 is not dealing with the lost--the ‘many are called' and the saved, ‘but few are chosen.' Jesus is trying to tell us that all of these workmen received the same penny even though they came later in the afternoon. Those who worked all day objected and according to the American way we might say they were right. Jesus did not view it this way, however.

‘For the kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man . . . ' In Jesus parable He tells us that all of the ‘called' and ‘chosen' ones were and are still in the Kingdom. He is merely telling us that some mighty men and women of God who we might esteem as giants in the Kingdom, in God's view at the positioning of them in Heaven may turn out to be only well above average. Some who we might think are of minimal service in our churches and in the world may be the real giants spiritually speaking. Again, ALL spoken of in Matthew 20:1-16 are already in the eternal kingdom. So, to use this verse to prove some kind of autocratic Divine election is completely off the scope as far as the Triune Godhead is concerned.

In the future Kingdom in Heaven the last may come in first and some who thought they were ‘big shots' in the Kingdom may be serving you. Yes, many are ‘called' to eternal life, but only His ‘few,' super spiritual ones will be His ‘chosen'ones.

Jesus is saying to us that He will reward His people for their efforts as also noted in I Corinthians 3:11-15 and Matthew 19:29.

It's time to leave the S.S. room and come to theology classroom.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The unbeliever needs no special, volley of Spirit directed drawing in order to come to Christ.

Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (Jn. 6:44)

draw
New Testament Greek Definition:
1670 helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}
probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v
AV - draw 8; 8
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

No man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him by inward power, leads, or impels him to come.

Anyone hearing the invitation can and should say, Come. Anyone who thirst for Jesus is to ‘take' of the water of eternal life, freely. Does anyone still think that only the frozen chosen were and are called? I hope not!

No, not everyone who hears the gospel can come. There is a prerequesite for taking the water of life: thirst. Seeking God is something the natural man does not do (Rom. 3:11) and cannot be wrought in him by mere human will or manipulation. Paul wrote in his epistle to the Romans, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom. 8:30) God completed the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world. Salvation is of the Lord from election to glorification and everything in between!

‘For God so loved the WORLD, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.'

You assume too much by the word "world." According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "world" may refer to "the inhabitants of the earth or a section of them." There are, in fact, many "worlds;" the world of animals, the world of medicine, the world of science, etc. Jesus redeemed His people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. This constitutes the world.

God's desire was that ' . . . all men honor the Son.' He could not make this assessment and statement in John 5:23 if He did not mean what He said.

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." (Jn. 5:24)

The issue here is setting forth the equality of the Father and the Son, that is, that the Son should be honored as the Father is honored. You should not read too much into the text.

In the future Kingdom in Heaven the last may come in first and some who thought they were ‘big shots' in the Kingdom may be serving you. Yes, many are ‘called' to eternal life, but only His ‘few,' super spiritual ones will be His ‘chosen'ones.

Jesus is saying to us that He will reward His people for their efforts as also noted in I Corinthians 3:11-15 and Matthew 19:29.

Leave it up to the religious world to find something for which boast.

[ June 29, 2002, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:

You assume too much by the word "world." According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "world" may refer to "the inhabitants of the earth or a section of them." There are, in fact, many "worlds;" the world of animals, the world of medicine, the world of science, etc. Jesus redeemed His people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. This constitutes the world.

Why do you use the Oxford English Dictionary to define the English translation for a Greek word?

Noman F. Douty in his book, "The Death of Christ," states thse works:

Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament
Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament
Robinson's A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament
Souter's Pocket Lexicon of the Greek New Testament
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
Ardnt-Gingrich's A Greek-English Lexicon of the NEw Testament
Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the NEw Testament
The NEw Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
Hastings' Bible Dictionary and Dictionary of the Apostolic Church
the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Tasker's New Bible Dictionary
Harrison in Baker's Dictionary of Theology
John Davis in his Dictionary of the BIble (both harrison and Davis list John 3:16 as referring to mankind, though both are Presbyterians)

Then Douty says,

"But amid all the divisions and sub-divisions listed, the word for world is never said to denote "the elect." These lexicons know nothing of such a use of kosmos in the New Testament, under which to tabulate John 1:29, 3:16-18; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 12:47; 14:31; 16:-8-11; 17-21, 23; II Corinthians 5:19; John 2:2; and 4:14."

He goes on to say,

"All of this is disastrous for advocates of Limited atonement. They have ventured to set themselves above the combined scholarship of lexicons, encyclopedias and dictionaries when they ascribe a different meaning of the word kosmos which will support their theological system."

In fact, I challenge anyone to find any kind of use in ancient or koine Greek outside the NT where "kosoms" is translated "the elect."

Guess what? Scholars haven't found such use yet.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Now you have me confused, Scott. Are you agreeing with me(and the Bible) that man's choosing has nothing to do with the saving? Are you agreeing with me(and the Bible) that the saving is all by God's sovereign grace?

I've said the same thing over and over and over agsin since I've started posting on this board. There is nothing man can do to "earn" salvation. There is nothing man can do to develop his own salvation. God sent his son to die all men. The Light draws all men. All man has to do is to repent from his sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and he is saved. Man has to do choose the free gift of salvation. He can say yes; he can say no. All men have the choice to say yes and say no. This is what the Bible [clearly] says.

 

[Daniel David]

No Scott, the Bible clearly does not say that. I have offered two passages that you refuse to touch. Both passages deny what you are trying to propose. The Scripture commands all men to repent. All are invited to come to the water of life. Nobody denies this. The question is whether a person will EVER WANT to come on his own. The undeniable answer is NO . There are none that seek after God, no not ONE. Everyman has gone his own way. The lost are pictured as children of wrath and enemies of God. The lost don't care about God. Man's "free will" would recrucify Christ again if it had the chance.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Matthew 20:1-16 is not dealing with the lost--the ‘many are called' and the saved, ‘but few are chosen.

Ray,

I referred to Matthew 22:14. Immediately preceding this verse is verse 13:

(Mat 22:13 NKJV) "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

This is clearly talking about someone who is lost.

Now on to Matthew and the chapter 20 and the verse 16. The point of the parable is that the Jews may perceive themselves as having a headstart on the Gentiles when it comes to spiritual things. But, due to God's grace, the Gentiles will be seen to be as rewarded by God's grace as the Jews. Also, the landowner refers to one of them as having an evil eye - hardly the way we would expect a Christian to be referred to on the Day of Judgment. This verse still has a similar meaning to Matthew 22:14. Remember that the Israelites as a whole are referred to as those called by God(Hosea 11:1). But we also know that only some of those in this called out people were saved(regenerated). So, simply a general call is not the same as an effectual call. The warning to the Jews is that they should not rest in the idea that their people group were called by God, but to be certain that they are chosen as well.

(2 Pet 1:10 NKJV) Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ June 29, 2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

'A general call is different than an effectual call.'

I clearly understand your view. The general call to the lost is the Triune God's insincere call while the effectual call is His virulent call to the soon to become elect ones.

[ June 29, 2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

II Peter 1:10 clearly indicates that the individual has a part in the conversion of the soul. 'Give diligence' and 'make your calling and election sure.' While God extends the call and prompting by the Holy Spirit, we must respond to His love if we are to be saved.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The general call of God to all lost persons is a call that the Lord offers to everyone who hears the words of His saving message. His offer is sincere and more than generous. If God calls people through the Gospel, and He does, it is one that has the full impact of the Holy Spirit on those who are most needy, meaning all the lost ones.

If this is not true then we have a God who is partial toward His creation. [Acts 19:30] 'Now He commands ALL men (everywhere) {in His world --north, east, south and west and the isles of the sea} to repent.' His call is not limited to a contorted 'effectual call.'

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
II Peter 1:10 clearly indicates that the individual has a part in the conversion of the soul. 'Give diligence' and 'make your calling and election sure.' While God extends the call and prompting by the Holy Spirit, we must respond to His love if we are to be saved.

The verse in question says "Be diligent to make your calling and election sure." The point is not about getting a call and being elected but about assurance. You have misconstrued the passage and not allowed it to say what it does. Peter is addressing an issue of assurance ... how one can have confidence of his calling and election.

You also demonstrate a misunderstanding of the effectual vs. general call. The general goes to all and is sincere. There is no insincere call. The effectual call gives the ability to respond ... hence it is effectual or efficacious.

This does not, as so often repeated, demonstrate a partiality with God. God is not partial to any man, least of all those who chose him. God is impartial to all. He does not treat those who are smart enough, or lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, or lucky enough to have friends praying for them any differently than any one else.

[ June 29, 2002, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]