Inability of the Will is Never Literal

[Rockson]

Rockson,

Since you and I see God's word so very differently, I often do not reply to your posts.
The reason?
It seems not to lead to a firmer understanding of the "Calvinist" position, no matter how much many of us try to explain things.

Well Dave I think you should consider that many of us do indeed understand the "Calvinist" position. We simply don't agree it lines up with scripture.

I believe that we've covered this ground many times, sir, and still it seems you are not understanding what we see in God's word.

And as you can well appreciate merely because one has gone over something "many times" doesn't mean they're right.

I also get the impression that your continued comments may go further than that...I suspect that, not only do you disagree with what many of us that are "Calvninists" state, but that you are also deeply offended by the God that we represent in our comments.

Come on Dave. Swing this around to be fair. ARE YOU offended at the God Non Calvinists represent in our comments?

But, since I am not a mind reader, I cannot say for sure what your motivations are.

But my friend you delved into what they possibly are. Maybe if you just stayed with what you know I said and not what impressions you wonder about we can stay on course? Thanks if you would.

 

[Rockson]

Rockson,


Again:

God does not ordain the sins that men do.
But, knowing their hearts and minds, and knowing the end from the beginning, He uses all of it to set things up in such a way as to bring glory and honor to Himself...for His mercy, for His kindness, for His goodness that leads men to repentance ( Romans 2:1-6 ) and for other things that He does in His righteousness and perfect judgment.

Does this really reflect the Calvinist position? I'd ask all readers to consider a statement from John Calvin himself.

"...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)

So Dave how do you get God does not ordain the sins that men do, from God is the author of them himself? Sorry Dave but you obviously have no written rightly about the Calvinist's position at least when it comes to John Calvin himself. I can quote from other more current Calvinists as well which basically said the same thing as he.

 

[Ken Hamrick]

Personally,
I think the concept of "common sense", when applied to God's word is at best unreliable, and at worst, serves to only get in the way.

I can see why a Calvinist might want to say that.

I'm reminded of the Lord's command here, that I happen to believe was made in order to forestall or urge the believer, to dump what "seems right" and to trust Him and His words explicitly ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
Because God's children are prone to being "dull of hearing" ( Hebrews 5:11 ) and "carnal" in their understanding ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 ) and fit for not the "meat" of the word, but only "milk" ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ) until they build upon the words of God over time, they are in special need of that "milk" and milk alone ...and should never trust in things like "common sense" to guide them.
Paul confessed, " For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not." ( Romans 7:18 )...
As I see it, "common sense" goes out with the trash, and I'm forced to trust only in God's word and my Teacher ( Hebrews 8:7-13, 1 John 2:20-27 ) for my understanding of it.

This is specious as a reply to me. We are "to dump what 'seems right'" to the natural man; but we are not to dump what seems right to the spiritual man seeking God's truth in Scripture. Calvinism is funny in that it takes the general principle that fallen sinners find God's truth repugnant, and then uses the repugnancy felt by non-Calvinists to their doctrine as an indication that Calvinists are in line with the truth. I've even heard some Calvinists testify of their own initial repugnancy with Calvinism, who tell of how they struggled to accept what their minds and common sense fought so hard against, but now they wear it as a badge of honor--as if the degree of repugnancy were the degree of truthfulness and as if their acceptance of it were an example of a superior reliance of God's ways and truths. But the truthfulness of a doctrine should never be measured by how difficult it is for Christians to accept, as that method could be used to defend all manner of false ideas that would also--by all common sense--be repugnant.

The fact that immature believers who need the milk of the Word might be tempted to rely on the natural understanding instead of the deeper doctrinal truth could be applied to your side as easily as to mine. You charge that the common sense of my doctrine is due to not understanding God's truth in the matter, but I change you with the same. Not only may a believer who's relying on his fleshly mind fall into error on the side of his common sense, but he also may fall into error on the side of going to specious extremes and carrying a principle of Scriptural truth to an extreme not intended by God to be carried so far. And when that happens, it would be quite natural for such a man to then claim that all who disagree--all who balk at the repugnancy--ought to lay down their "common sense of the natural man" as he did and accept God's truth.

So, I see no desperate need to negotiate a compromise with my own faulty understanding and God's word...

Neither do I. The middle is not centrally located as a compromise between two positions. It's just located between two opposite errors, each taking a principle of truth too far one way or the other (like a path between two ditches).

Trusting in Him to develop that understanding over time in study is the correct course, as starting off on "shaky ground" should automatically necessitate a total reliance for His child to grab hold of His hand while they are learning to "walk".

Agreed.

 

[Dave G]

Come on Dave. Swing this around to be fair. ARE YOU offended at the God Non Calvinists represent in our comments?

I think that by now, you already know the answer to that even without me having to say it, sir.
But, to be clear, I'm offended whenever I see someone presenting a god that appeals to man's sense of what he thinks is "fair", and not God's revealed "sense of" justice.
A man-made god that loves everyone, when Scripture demonstrates, in the details, that that is simply not true.

A man-made god that is developed using 2 Peter 3:9 out of context, for example.

The only thing I can do is to follow His commands here ( 2 Timothy 2:22-26 ) and, being stuck in this untrustworthy flesh as I am, to do my best to be patient with my brothers and sisters who may not be seeing every detail yet.

Does this really reflect the Calvinist position?

I'm not sure, Rockson...I'm not a "Calvinist".
But it reflects my position, or I would not have posted what I believe from my reading of God's word.

So Dave how do you get God does not ordain the sins that men do, from God is the author of them himself?

God does not ordain the sins men do:

" Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" ( James 1:12-15 )

God condemns sin, He does not sponsor it.
He allows it on Earth, He does not cause it.
His holiness is what prevents Him from allowing it in His presence.

Sin, ( disobedience to His commands ) is precisely what put His Son on the cross.
Those acts of disobedience had to be dealt with according to His justice, or we'd all be in Hell...which is the fitting punishment for someone who refuses to stop sinning.
I agree with His perspective, as "harsh" as that may sound.

The new birth stops it, in spirit, while the first resurrection ( the believer's glorification with a new and perfect body ) stops it, in letter.

Sorry Dave but you obviously have no written rightly about the Calvinist's position at least when it comes to John Calvin himself. I can quote from other more current Calvinists as well which basically said the same thing as he.

I'm free to disagree with anyone based on what I see in Scripture, Rockson.
I'm also not the one who classifies me as a "Calvinist"...

To me, that is coming more from the direction of someone who sees my agreement with the TULIP as being "Calvinist".
Those that disagree with it are the ones who, most often, do the pinning of that label, from my perspective.
May I suggest considering that not everyone who understands the "doctrines of grace" is in lock step with John Calvin?

Just as you do, I stand before the Lord and am responsible to Him and Him alone.
I don't subscribe to man's teachings, even though it may seem to you, that I do.


This is my final reply in this thread.

My thanks, again, to the op for the privilege of replying to his thread, and thanks to the many readers of this thread for carefully examining my usage of Scripture in my comments ...whether or not you may agree with it or them.

At the end of the day, the decision is up to you whether or not the middle position has any truth to it.



May God bless you all in ways that may only be seen... when they cause you to sit in wonder at His amazing grace towards you.

 

[Rockson]

But, to be clear, I'm offended whenever I see someone presenting a god that appeals to man's sense of what he thinks is "fair", and not God's revealed "sense of" justice.
A man-made god that loves everyone, when Scripture demonstrates, in the details, that that is simply not true.

And so let me likewise be clear. I'm offended whenever I see someone presenting a god that appeals to man's sense of what he thinks is "fair" and not God's revealed "sense of" justice. A man-made god the doesn't love everyone, when Scripture demonstrates that he most certainly does.

The only thing I can do is to follow His commands here ( 2 Timothy 2:22-26 ) and, being stuck in this untrustworthy flesh as I am, to do my best to be patient with my brothers and sisters who may not be seeing every detail yet.

As we most sincerely are seeking to do towards you.

I'm not sure, Rockson...I'm not a "Calvinist".
But it reflects my position, or I would not have posted what I believe from my reading of God's word.

And yet you did say Dave that you accept the label of being a "Calvinist" if it helps people to identify you as agreeing with "TULIP" (your posts 21 in the "Calvinism - an attempt at a common definition" thread.

God does not ordain the sins men do:

OK I agree with you. But I have seen others somewhat like you who say things similar in other sites but lo and behold what do I find when I turn for a moment....they're not saying the very words "God ordains the sins men do" but basically if you take the wraps off that's exactly what they're saying. It seems to me with some things change depending on what audience they're talking about. Trust you're not such a one.

May God bless you all in ways that may only be seen... when they cause you to sit in wonder at His amazing grace towards you.

Yes Dave that's certainly something EVERYONE should wonder about and be thankful concerning. Too bad though that by your doctrines you limit it to just a very few lucky ones or the especially blessed leaving all the rest of humanity feeling like this... What? I'm not loved? I'm not cared about? Yup...easy for you dear people to feel happy and fine and give your smiles. Sorry Dave! Not the heart of the Father God of Heaven. He loves all even those you wouldn't think he would. Please consider it.

 

[Ken Hamrick]

...I'll preface this with an observation I've made in other threads, and it was this:
The Lord Jesus "speaks in spiritual" in many places in His word ( see John 6:63 ).
That is what I see in some of these. Also, context comes into play in many of them.

Matthew 11:28 <--- The context of this is found in the verses prior to it. Matthew 11:25-27, in which He states that His Father has hidden things from the wise and prudent ( see 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ), and revealed them unto "babes" ( Matthew 18:6 )..."nobody's", by this world's standards. The ones He has revealed the Father to, are the ones He is speaking to, as I see it. In other words, His sheep.

I had said:

Mat. 11:28
Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

It is not just the elect who are weary and heavy-laden. The gospel is for all, and we are commanded to preach it to all.

So let's examine the context:

Matthew 11
20 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
What we find in the context is the Lord's condemning of Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum for not repenting from their unbelief when the previously destroyed cities of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom would have so repented if they had seen the mighty works of Jesus that Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum had seen. It is clear from the context that men choose whether to believe and repent or reject God and incur His judgment. And while it is also clear that such things are hidden from the wise and revealed to children--to those whom the Lord chooses to reveal it--it is still affirmed that men re responsible for choosing what they ought to choose and believing what they ought to believe.

I had said:

2 Cor. 5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Fuller, p. 49, quotes Owen regarding this verse:
"'When the apostle beseecheth us to be reconciled to God, I would know,' says Dr. Owen, 'whether it be not a part of our duty to yield obedience? If not, the exhortation is frivolous and vain' [Display of Arminianism, chap. x. 5]. If sinners are not obliged to be reconciled to God, both as a Lawgiver and a Savior, and that with all their hearts, it is no sin to be unreconciled..."

You replied:

2 Corinthians 5:20

<---- Here Paul is writing to those that have already believed...not to all men. He is telling them to be reconciled, in their minds, to Christ...even though, in reality they already are. Anyone who is a believer has already been reconciled to God ( Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:16, Colossians 1:20 ). Believers being "dull" in their understanding, it takes much encouragement to "get the message through", and to reckon ourselves as forgiven, dead to sin, etc. From my perspective, he is speaking to them in that way because of the infirmity of their "flesh" ( Romans 6:19 ).

Again, let's examine the context:

2 Cor. 5
18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Verse 18 speaks of when Christ reconciled "us" to Himself, meaning those who believe in Him. Then it says that "God gave us the ministry of reconciliation." This is the Great Commission--to preach the good news of the gospel--that sinners may be reconciled to God by believing in Christ--to every creature. Verse 19 tells us that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself by carrying out His plan of redemption through what Christ accomplished. And God is still carrying out His plan today, by "making His appeal through us"--entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. For those whom God reconciles through faith in Christ, He will not count their trespasses against them. They will instead be reconciled to Him. Verse 20 says, therefore, "we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." A ruler does not need an ambassador to speak to his own citizen or subject. An ambassador is a picture of a ruler speaking to a foreigner. In this case, the picture of ambassadorship is used to illustrate that the message is being preached to those who have not yet been reconciled--unbelievers. Why?--It is because the whole ministry of reconciliation whereby we implore men, "Be reconciled to God!" is a ministry where we preach the gospel to unbelievers and implore them to believe. Your rendering of the meaning here--claiming that Paul's message of reconciliation was intended for believers, is very poor indeed.

more to follow...

 

[Ken Hamrick]

Romans 1

<--- this is Paul speaking to the Roman believers, establishing why he is writing to them.
" by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" ( Romans 1:5 )
Paul and the ones accompanying him have received grace and apostleship, for both His name and for obedience to the faith ( see Jude 1:3 ) among all nations ( see Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ). The purpose of Paul and those who went with him was to spread the gospel among all nations.

You've missed the point entirely. I cited this to show you that there is such a thing as "obedience to the faith"--that to believe God is to obey His imploring us to do just that. The purpose of Paul was not merely to spread the gospel, but also that it might be obeyed and believed.

2 Thessalonians 1:8

, " in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
Here I see that Paul is making a declaration...the Lord Jesus is coming from Heaven to take vengeance, in flaming fire on them that know not God and that do not obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To me, this does not imply that they will, but that they do not. It is an observation and nothing more.

What you seem to have missed is that a reason for the vengeance, along side other reasons, is their disobedience of the gospel by not believing. Your attempt to drive a wedge between "taking vengeance" and "obey not the gospel" rips the true meaning in half.

I had said:

John 16
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

You replied:

John 16:8-11

<---- Here I see you making reference to these facts: When Jesus is gone, He will send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. When He comes, He will do 3 things:

1) He will reprove ( reprimand, not "convict" ) the world for its sins. One of which is for not believing Him. How? Through believers ( Ephesians 5:11 ). Again, a declaration, not an implication. The world hates Christ and will not come to Him, the Light of the world ( John 3:19-20 ). Why? Because He will reprove them...
That is how I understand that passage, after many years.

The word (ἐλέγχω, elegchō) G1651 means to convict as much as it means to reprove. You may struggle to establish the difference, but you cannot succeed. It is clear from the text that the Holy Spirit will "convict the world concerning sin... because they do not believe in Me." If the text of Scripture is your standard of truth, then you cannot separate one half from the other--you cannot read this plain and clear statement and then think that the sin with which the Holy Spirit is concerned with here is not the sin of not believing in Christ. If you can, then you're resorting to some gymnastics that I cannot accept.

Mark 16:15-16 <---- Yet another declaration. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. He that does not, shall be damned. Similar to John 3:18, in which those who do not believe are condemned already, evidencing themselves to be condemned by their refusal to believe on Christ, the people described in Mark 16:15-16 are either saved or lost. Christ is making that distinction here. A set of simple facts. I see no implication that people can or cannot believe, only that they either do, or do not.

Okay. That's plausible... except when other Scriptures are brought to bear, such as the next one:

Matt. 11
20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Matthew 11:20-24

<---- The Lord Jesus is holding the cities of Israel responsible for not repenting after seeing His mighty works...even though the Jews require a sign ( see Matthew 12:38, John 4:48, 1 Corinthians 1:22 ), and He gives them plenty...yet they refuse to believe, even as He said. Why? Because the unregenerate will not repent. He is speaking , once again, as their Lord and Master under the Old Covenant...to which He is still holding them responsible to obey Him as its Author.

Like Ninaveh repented when Jonah was sent to it, the cities of Tyre and Sidon would have repented of their disobedience, in the temporal sense...but Israel would not have.

Your theory that all this has to do only with the old covenant fails by the fact that none of the cities mentioned as those who would have believed if they had seen Jesus' might works were in the covenant--not even Ninevah. No, it is a clear statement of condemnation for refusing to repent and believe, and holds up others who would have repented under the same circumstances. The dancing you must resort to keeps getting more complicated.
[QUOTE="Dave Gilbert, post: 2514767, member: 14226"]
As you can see, I look at things very differently, sir.
I'm sorry if it confuses you, but there it is.[/quote]
I'm not confused.

...Again, given the corrupt nature of man, true repentance must be bestowed on a person, and can only take effect if one is born again.

John 1
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

First, we receive Him, and then we're made sons of God.

Be blessed, Dave!