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Incense
- Thread starter VDMA
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IMHO, incense gives an atmosphere of solemnity and beauty that is fitting to the greatest gift given by Jesus to His church. The true worship of God the Father as offered by Christ. It helps me understand that during worship we enter into and are united with the worship offered God in Heaven by his Angels and saints.
Where in the NT are we encouraged or commanded to burn incense?
I’ll hang up and listen
I’ll hang up and listen
Where in the NT are we encouraged or commanded to 'sing specials, have altar calls, use hymnals, play pianos/organs, preach from pulpits, etc., etc.
I'll hang up and listen
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you are preaching to the choir my friend
I don’t see it either
although hymnals do help us to know the words to songs, so we prob disagree on that one
the Bible does say let everything be done decently and in order
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VDMA
Member
I think you are missing the point of the video. It is merely a video why incense are used. The video really answers your question. No one is saying “thus says the Lord you have to use incense”.
Using incense is biblical and used for a specific purpose in the Divine Service (Mass). All the senses are engaged.
Those who are not from a liturgical background always ask why … why do you make the sign of the cross … why do you bow … why do you genuflect … why do you have crucifixes, etc. This was an excellent video on why incense are used. Using incense is very biblical. The historic church never stopped using incense, vestments, etc. I rather have all my senses engaged. Incense are pleasing to God.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 5:19
I have no problems with incense if the congregation considers it worshipful and spiritually edifying.
I wouldn’t accept it is normative or required for true worship.
At times, I appreciate the more somber approach Catholics use in worship, including the incense though I admit to being uncomfortable with the underlying beliefs.
I personally appreciate the Catholics here having a civil discussion in these issues. I know you have to be careful to not cross the line of proselytizing and that must be difficult.
It is informative to understand why you believe the things you do.
peace to you
Many things arent
bottom line -
On some things God requires
On Some things God forbids
On some things God recommends
On some things God is silent!
Liturgical : a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
Rite: a religious or other solemn ceremony or act:
Most Baptists only see two solemn ceremony - Baptism and the Lords Supper-
both of which are only symbolic.
For the most part - any way you worship is NOT anti-Biblical
I just don't see the need for most of it. I do not attend chruch
for all liturgical actions - I go to worship (and that includes a lot more than just music)
for the most part our services are very informal.
BTW - What church is that in post # 7 ?
I agree, however, I look to the writings of the Early Church to see what was considered decent and in order. St Jerome, in his commentary on Ezekiel xliv. 19, wrote that "We, too, ought not to enter the Holy of Holies in our everyday garments ... when they have become defiled from the use of ordinary life, but with a clean conscience, and in clean garments, hold in our hands the Sacrament of the Lord."
and what do you consider to be the sacrament of the Lord?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That is the command of Paul, that all things be done in an orderly manner and with reverence. Beyond that, and the Ephesians 5 command to sing “Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs” the local body has a lot of room to order their worship.
peace to you
VDMA
Member
The sacrament of the Lord, is the medicine of immortality, the blessed sacrament, also know as the Sacrament of the Altar, the Lord’s Super, it is the true corporal body & blood of Christ, for the forgiveness of sins.
The early church was also very liturgical, they believe in the real corporal body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins (as taught by the Apostles). They did not teach a symbolic view of the Eucharist. They used incense, vestments they chanted, etc. Basically they did not resemble anything remotely close to being Baptist theologically or in worship practices. The church has always be sacramental and incarnational … because that is what the sacred scripture teaches.
Sacred scripture has a lot to say about worship.
Scripture give witness to the faithfulness of liturgical worship and its power to unify the Church, to faithfully teach God’s people, respect her traditions, and to reflect the unity of the one true God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – whom we worship.
Additionally, liturgy serves chiefly for the proper administration of the Word (Law/Gospel) and Sacraments (e.g. Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution, the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar).
Passages from Scripture that testify to the need for faithfulness in liturgical worshipGenesis 13:18 Exodus 25:9 Exodus 28:1-2 II Chronicles 29:27-30 I Corinthians 14:26-33Hebrews 10:24-25 Hebrews 8:2, 6Revelation 4 Revelation 5 Revelation 7:9-12 Revelation 15:2-4 Revelation 19:1-8 etc.
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live.
You do not have to use vestments or incense but why would you not? We have a God that engages all senses, and is a God of beauty and order. Worship is sacramental and incarnational. Incense, vestments, etc., really only make sense in a liturgical context. It would be weird to see a Baptist Church use incense because of their theology. Everything has been stripped away in the Baptist Church to bare bones.
Though, not canonical, we get a clear idea of how the Early Church worshipped in the reading of The Didache. Thought to be written between 70 and 100 AD, it clearly shows a liturgical church which was established by The Apostles and grounded solidly in scripture:
The Didache | EWTN
Again, the last statement is because Baptists are trying to follow the Scriptural Mandate. Do not get me wrong. Some Baptist Churches drive me crazy w what they do in worship and it is just as much out of line as those who practice High Liturgy
Anglicans and Lutherans would have the same beef about upper case 'C' and lower case 'c' (Catholic Church). Lutherans (LCMS & other confessional Lutherans) recite the Athanasian Creed once a year in the liturgy. It refers to believers as holding the 'catholic faith' and that it being essential. The word 'catholic' in those Christian bodies refers to the Holy Universal Church and not the papal or Orthodox Church.
The point being that there is NO higher authority in a Baptist church. That local Baptist church is fully autonomous and self-governing.
Though there may be "Denomination offices" they have NO control over any local church. A church may be affiliated with an organization, such as the Southern Baptist Convention, General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, Bible Baptist Fellowship and ect. A local church is free to leave that affiliation at any time. The building is owned by the local church. Bottom line is that the local church makes its own decisions! - Thus there is NO such thing as the Baptist Church.
Keep in mind there are two definitions of "denomination"
1) an organization with a Hierarchy govt
2) churches with similar beliefs
Though there may be "Denomination offices" they have NO control over any local church. A church may be affiliated with an organization, such as the Southern Baptist Convention, General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, Bible Baptist Fellowship and ect. A local church is free to leave that affiliation at any time. The building is owned by the local church. Bottom line is that the local church makes its own decisions! - Thus there is NO such thing as the Baptist Church.
Keep in mind there are two definitions of "denomination"
1) an organization with a Hierarchy govt
2) churches with similar beliefs
Hi VDMA,
Man, I like everything you say. Didn’t you say you were Orthodox? I don’t want to get this thread off track but just wanted to say I like what you say!
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