Incorrect/Correct Doctrine

[Don]

With the blessing of the originator, I was encouraged via PM to introduce a new thread discussing this subject.

In a previous thread, I incorrectly used the word "send" when specifying that incorrect doctrine or doctrinal error can result in souls being misled, with the end result being those souls go to hell.

I believe in salvation by grace through faith; not of works. Anyone who teaches salvation by grace plus anything; salvation by any means other than Jesus; etc.; is teaching false doctrine. Those that follow that false doctrine will find themselves in hell.

This is what I meant. Please feel free to educate me further on the subject.

 

[kyredneck]

.....In a previous thread, I incorrectly used the word "send" when specifying that incorrect doctrine or doctrinal error can result in souls being misled, with the end result being those souls go to hell....

Whether I 'send' someone to hell, or if I 'lead' someone to hell, the [totally false] implication is that I can somehow be held accountable for another's eternal destiny due to some act of omission or commission on my part.

It's as I said on the other thread; I didn't have anything to do with my own eternal destiny, far much less anyone else's.

 

[Don]

I humbly submit the parable of the talents; hopefully, I'm not using it out of context.

But I'm not grasping exactly what your opposition to my statement is. If someone teaches something other than salvation by grace, are they not leading someone astray?

 

[preacher4truth]

I wonder why, when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for proselytizing, he said those they converted were "twofold more the children of hell?" Matthew 23:15

I've not studied it out.

 

[thegospelgeek]

If God's election is unconditional and grace is irresistable. Then any action on one's part plays not part in anyone's standing before God. Prayer, Witnessing, teaching, or preaching are all mute points

 

[Robert Snow]

If God's election is unconditional and grace is irresistable. Then any action on one's part plays not part in anyone's standing before God. Prayer, Witnessing, teaching, or preaching are all mute points

This is just one more thing that shows the falsehood of hyper-Calvinism.

 

[webdog]

Whether I 'send' someone to hell, or if I 'lead' someone to hell, the [totally false] implication is that I can somehow be held accountable for another's eternal destiny due to some act of omission or commission on my part.

It's as I said on the other thread; I didn't have anything to do with my own eternal destiny, far much less anyone else's.

Read Ezekiel 33.

If you had nothing to do with your eternal destiny, the reprobate also had nothing to do with their eternal destiny. Therefore they are erroneously held accountable for something they had nothing to do with.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Don

Even though I am not a Calvinist I agree, that we don’t have very much to do with a person going to hell.
All those souls that follow a false prophet, choose to do so themselves.
--------------------------------------------------
But there is one area where our sin, can be responsible for the actions of others.
When we(as pastors), are told to preach the truth to our flock.....
Ezekiel 3:18
“When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”

This is talking about pastors, having the courage to warn God’s people(from the pulpit), to repent of their sinful practices.
If he doesn’t, and they are chastened to death(taken on home to be with the Lord early), their blood will be on his hands.

 

[Dr. Bob]

God holds man responsible for our actions. This has nothing to do, of course, with the eternal purposes of God

Greatest example is the crucifixion. 100% God's will, God's plan, God's orchestrating events culminating in deicide.

So God is blamed? No way, Hosea!!

They acted on their own depraved vile will, BUT "against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done" it was God's plan/will.

And as to blame/accountability? "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead" = 100% on the evil doers

(Both part of the sermon in Acts 4)

 

[SRBooe]

Hmmmm, seems like a pretty clear determination to me.

Stilllearning posted:

Ezekiel 3:18
“When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”

What am I missing?

I think there is a big smoke screen every time someone used the term "hyper calvinism." What does that actually mean?

 

[Don]

Hello Don

Even though I am not a Calvinist I agree, that we don’t have very much to do with a person going to hell.
All those souls that follow a false prophet, choose to do so themselves.
--------------------------------------------------
But there is one area where our sin, can be responsible for the actions of others.
When we(as pastors), are told to preach the truth to our flock.....
Ezekiel 3:18
“When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”

This is talking about pastors, having the courage to warn God’s people(from the pulpit), to repent of their sinful practices.
If he doesn’t, and they are chastened to death(taken on home to be with the Lord early), their blood will be on his hands.

The original thread I posted my statement in was dealing with potential pastors in the seminary; so I can see where Ezekiel 3:18 applies to that conversation as well.

But I have to ask: for those people without a pastor, that see only little ol' you and me -- do we have no responsibility to warn others of impending damnation?

 

[preacher4truth]

The original thread I posted my statement in was dealing with potential pastors in the seminary; so I can see where Ezekiel 3:18 applies to that conversation as well.

But I have to ask: for those people without a pastor, that see only little ol' you and me -- do we have no responsibility to warn others of impending damnation?

Good question. I think merely presenting the Gospel warns the lost of impending wrath, from which, we through Christ have escaped.

 

[Amy.G]

I think we are held accountable for our behavior and the lost are held accountable for theirs.

If I hide my light under a bushel, I will lose reward but not salvation.

The Bible is clear that God has revealed Himself to all men, so that they are without excuse. Their condemnation is on their own head.

 

[Don]

I think we are held accountable for our behavior and the lost are held accountable for theirs.

If I hide my light under a bushel, I will lose reward but not salvation.

The Bible is clear that God has revealed Himself to all men, so that they are without excuse. Their condemnation is on their own head.

I hear what you're saying; using the excuse "so-and-so told me all I had to do was get baptized!" is not going to have the effect of God saying, "oh, okay, never mind then, go on in." (please forgive me if my light-heartedness offends anyone) And I can agree with that: believing what I'm taught, allowing myself to be misled, rather than questioning, searching the scriptures, and studying to show myself approved....

However, I think you're also saying we will have to answer for ourselves for preaching a false doctrine. Is that correct?

 

[Amy.G]

I hear what you're saying; using the excuse "so-and-so told me all I had to do was get baptized!" is not going to have the effect of God saying, "oh, okay, never mind then, go on in." (please forgive me if my light-heartedness offends anyone) And I can agree with that: believing what I'm taught, allowing myself to be misled, rather than questioning, searching the scriptures, and studying to show myself approved....

However, I think you're also saying we will have to answer for ourselves for preaching a false doctrine. Is that correct?

That's a complicated question. If a Christian preaches a false doctrine out of ignorance, I believe God will somehow straighten him out and show him what's right. But the Bible speaks of false teachers who were marked out for destruction, so these would be unsaved or false converts perverting the gospel for their own purposes. These persons are condemned.

If a person is truly a child of God, He will not let him continue in false teaching. He will be chastised if necessary or taken out of the ministry.

 

[Don]

That's a complicated question. If a Christian preaches a false doctrine out of ignorance, I believe God will somehow straighten him out and show him what's right. But the Bible speaks of false teachers who were marked out for destruction, so these would be unsaved or false converts perverting the gospel for their own purposes. These persons are condemned.

And the ones who are persuaded by them ("led astray") to follow those perversions of the gospel? Think of Jim Jones, Charles Manson, et al; these were charismatic men who influenced others to the point where their followers believed that these men held the truth. Were these followers "led," or allowed themselves to be led?

I agree that we'll each answer for ourselves. As I read through each of these posts, I continue to work through this subject. Amy, your posts have caused me to ask: Is there a greater condemnation for those that convince others of a false gospel?

If a person is truly a child of God, He will not let him continue in false teaching. He will be chastised if necessary or taken out of the ministry.

I can hang with that.

 

[Bro. James]

Hyper-calvinism: those who have the most petals on their tulip. Many folk have trouble with the first: total depravity--some think our depravity does not include the free will, others believe the will is enslaved to the depraved nature and unable to choose wisely. This is the basic issue between J. Arminius and J. Calvin. There are also a lot of variations since their day. Irresistible grace is also a bone of contention.

Millions have perished, never having heard the Gospel. This makes no sense if God is not totally sovereign--limited atonement.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Zenas]

Whether I 'send' someone to hell, or if I 'lead' someone to hell, the [totally false] implication is that I can somehow be held accountable for another's eternal destiny due to some act of omission or commission on my part.

It's as I said on the other thread; I didn't have anything to do with my own eternal destiny, far much less anyone else's.

Redneck, you usually make a lot of sense but I can't go along with you on this. I think scripture does teach that we are responsible for others within our sphere of influence.

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. James 3:1.

If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42.

And what about that Pauline admonition about causing your brother to stumble? I believe we are our brother's keeper, in ways both physical and spiritual.

 

[Iconoclast]

We are responsible to warn the wicked faithfully,but even that result is in God's hand. This section of scripture used by Paul in acts 18 figures into the discussion;

Ezekiel 33 (King James Version)

Ezekiel 33
1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[kyredneck]

I humbly submit the parable of the talents; hopefully, I'm not using it out of context.

And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 25:30

If you're using the above passage to imply that Christians who fail to make converts are also going to burn in hell, yes, you've grossly taken it out of context. I suggest to you that the Jews, as a whole, have been 'cast into the outer darkness where there is the weeping and the gnashing of teeth' for the last two millenia for their disobedience [not eternity in hell but in this time world], and that the true implication of the passage concerning the unprofitable servant was to 'cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth'. If you reject the 'preterist modifier' in your interpretation of the gospels, then no, you won't grasp this.

But I'm not grasping exactly what your opposition to my statement is. If someone teaches something other than salvation by grace, are they not leading someone astray?

If you don't make a distinction between the effectual call and the gospel call, then no, you won't grasp this either. It is impossible to lead one of the elect astray so as to cause them to perish eternally. Incorrect doctrine [unhealthful teaching] can cause them much grief in this time world, but not in the eternal realm.