Incorrect/Correct Doctrine

[kyredneck]

I wonder why, when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for proselytizing, he said those they converted were "twofold more the children of hell?" Matthew 23:15

I've not studied it out.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves. Mt 23:15

I reiterate from my previous post:

It is impossible to lead one of the elect astray so as to cause them to perish eternally. Incorrect doctrine [unhealthful teaching] can cause them much grief in this time world, but not in the eternal realm.

Note the word 'twofold'. These proselytes were not of the elect:

“15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte--from heathenism. We have evidence of this in JOSEPHUS.
and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves--condemned, for the hypocrisy he would learn to practice, both by the religion he left and that he embraced.” Jamieson, Fausset, Brown


“and when he is made, ye make him two fold more the child of hell than yourselves; for to their former errors in heathenism, some of which they might still retain, they added new ones, they received from them, equally as bad, and were but more and more deserving of hell, and even more than their masters; and besides, were trained up by them in the most bitter prejudices against Christ, and his Gospel; and many of them proved more violent persecutors of the followers of Christ, than the original Jews themselves: see
Ac 15:5 Our Lord here seems to oppose a common notion and saying of their's {m}, that when

"one was made a proselyte, he became entirely like a new born babe;''

but so far from being like one in innocence and harmlessness, that he became a child of hell, filled with wrath and malice, and fitted for destruction; and so opposes another notion of their's, that hellfire has no power over their disciples, nor even over the transgressors of Israel {n}: but they will find it, by experience, that neither their descent from Abraham, nor their learning, nor their religion, will save them from the devouring flames, which their sins have made them so deserving of, and so are Mnhyg ynb, "children of hell" {o}; a Talmudic phrase; the meaning of which they understood well enough, and which was applicable to them, and more so to their proselytes; and that as owing to them, which was an aggravation of their own guilt and condemnation.” John Gill

 

[kyredneck]

..... I think scripture does teach that we are responsible for others within our sphere of influence....

Does this 'sphere of influence' include every individual that you come into contact with? What's the scriptural protocol for winning souls for Christ? How/when do you know that you've done enough? When do/can you take a break or relax from it?

If you are saying that we, as Christians, are responsible for the eternal destiny of others, i.e. that our failures can result in one burning in hell for all eternity; then I am going to suggest to you, and to all those who think that they believe likewise, that you don't really, really, really believe this. You just think that you do. Has there ever been a finite mortal that has been able to grasp the concept of infinity? Do you really, really, really believe that God has placed this sort of responsibility in our hands? If so, then there could absolutely be no heavier burden that He could have placed upon us. And how do you reconcile this awesome burden with these words of Christ?:

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11:30

And what about that Pauline admonition about causing your brother to stumble? I believe we are our brother's keeper, in ways both physical and spiritual.

Are you making 'to stumble' synonymous with burning in hell for all eternity?

 

[Amy.G]

And the ones who are persuaded by them ("led astray") to follow those perversions of the gospel? Think of Jim Jones, Charles Manson, et al; these were charismatic men who influenced others to the point where their followers believed that these men held the truth. Were these followers "led," or allowed themselves to be led?

They allowed themselves to be led. In this country, there are Bibles literally everywhere. Most people have more than one in the home. There is no excuse for their ignorance of the gospel. Jim Jones preached from the Bible, but put his own twist on it. Any of his followers could have tested what he taught against the word of God.
People choose to follow false teachers because they say what they want to hear. Itching ears.

Amy, your posts have caused me to ask: Is there a greater condemnation for those that convince others of a false gospel?

I think so. 2 Peter 2 (the whole chapter) speaks in detail of false teachers but ends with this:

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

[kyredneck]

Read Ezekiel 33.

If you had nothing to do with your eternal destiny, the reprobate also had nothing to do with their eternal destiny. Therefore they are erroneously held accountable for something they had nothing to do with.

How do you derive eternal accountability from Ez 33? You free willers will insert heaven and hell into a passage on a whim.

 

[webdog]

How do you derive eternal accountability from Ez 33? You free willers will insert heaven and hell into a passage on a whim.

What is the difference if it's accountability for a wake up phone call or sharing the Gospel? Accountability is accountability. My point was, we are held accountable for our actions. The person will spend eternity in hell due to their sin and them rejecting the Truth, but we will ALSO be held accountable for not being obedient. Do you believe we will get a free pass for being disobedient to god as believers?

 

[Don]

How do you derive eternal accountability from Ez 33? You free willers will insert heaven and hell into a passage on a whim.

Okay, now I understand. Sir, there's nothing more I can say or scripture that I could provide. One day, we'll both know for sure.

 

[quantumfaith]

And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 25:30

If you're using the above passage to imply that Christians who fail to make converts are also going to burn in hell, yes, you've grossly taken it out of context. I suggest to you that the Jews, as a whole, have been 'cast into the outer darkness where there is the weeping and the gnashing of teeth' for the last two millenia for their disobedience [not eternity in hell but in this time world], and that the true implication of the passage concerning the unprofitable servant was to 'cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth'. If you reject the 'preterist modifier' in your interpretation of the gospels, then no, you won't grasp this.




If you don't make a distinction between the effectual call and the gospel call, then no, you won't grasp this either. It is impossible to lead one of the elect astray so as to cause them to perish eternally. Incorrect doctrine [unhealthful teaching] can cause them much grief in this time world, but not in the eternal realm.

kyredneck,

I am with you on the principle that our impact spiritually on the eternal destiny of others is not "ultimate". That "fate" is a function which relates the "domain of God" to the "range of their choice of response. While, I acknowledge that my "reformed" brethren have strong logical and reasonable argruments, I just simply find it difficult and problematic to find the distinctive "effectual" and "gospel" calls.

I am reminded of the scripture in Isaiah:

"so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

Perhaps I did not use this scripture out of context either.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Whether I 'send' someone to hell, or if I 'lead' someone to hell, the [totally false] implication is that I can somehow be held accountable for another's eternal destiny due to some act of omission or commission on my part.

It's as I said on the other thread; I didn't have anything to do with my own eternal destiny, far much less anyone else's.

That pretty much nullifies any belief in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19,20).

 

[kyredneck]

That pretty much nullifies any belief in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19,20).

The Great Commission of the Church:

Feed my lambs...tend my sheep...feed my sheep.

How is that nullified?

 

[Zenas]

Does this 'sphere of influence' include every individual that you come into contact with? What's the scriptural protocol for winning souls for Christ? How/when do you know that you've done enough? When do/can you take a break or relax from it?

If you are saying that we, as Christians, are responsible for the eternal destiny of others, i.e. that our failures can result in one burning in hell for all eternity; then I am going to suggest to you, and to all those who think that they believe likewise, that you don't really, really, really believe this. You just think that you do. Has there ever been a finite mortal that has been able to grasp the concept of infinity? Do you really, really, really believe that God has placed this sort of responsibility in our hands? If so, then there could absolutely be no heavier burden that He could have placed upon us. And how do you reconcile this awesome burden with these words of Christ?:

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11:30

When you think about it, “sphere of influence” is a rather amorphous term that cuts a very wide swath. What I meant was your family, your students, anyone who listens to you and believes what you say, and yes we are responsible for the influence we have on them. What else could James have meant by “stricter judgment”? As for the “yoke is easy” thing, I do have difficulty reconciling it with most of what Jesus taught. So if you want to educate me, go ahead. Just remember, you will incur a stricter judgment.

Are you making 'to stumble' synonymous with burning in hell for all eternity?

No, not necessarily those who stumble. But for those who cause the stumbling it is more serious. Being cast into the sea with a millstone around your neck is very serious, yet that is better than what will happen to those who cause the stumbling. Jesus didn’t say it meant you would be sentenced to Hell for this but He did make it clear there would be terrible consequences.

 

[DHK]

The Great Commission of the Church:

Feed my lambs...tend my sheep...feed my sheep.

How is that nullified?

To quote you again:

Whether I 'send' someone to hell, or if I 'lead' someone to hell, the [totally false] implication is that I can somehow be held accountable for another's eternal destiny due to some act of omission or commission on my part.

It's as I said on the other thread; I didn't have anything to do with my own eternal destiny, far much less anyone else's.

The Great Commission, which is a part of the sheep-feeding process, compels you to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. It puts the burden on you to be a witness in your Jerusalem, your Judea, your Samaria, and also into the uttermost parts of the earth. That onus is on you. You, therefore, are held responsible before God for the eternal destiny of the souls of others by the omission of this command. They cannot save themselves. The Great Commission was not put into the Word of God for the good or our Savior's health.

 

[kyredneck]

To quote you again:

To quote me again:
It is impossible to lead one of the elect astray so as to cause them to perish eternally.

The Great Commission, which is a part of the sheep-feeding process

Is your 'Great Commission' actually about a 'sheep-feeding process'? Or do you really mean a 'sheep-making process'?

Again, the true 'Great Commission' given DIRECTLY to the Church by the apostle to the gentiles:

Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

....compels you to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.....

No, you are compelling me; from a passage that you have deemed to be 'The Great Commission' of the Church, and then you have the audacity to accuse me of being responsible for souls burning in hell because I don't see the passage the way you do. That is a horrendous lie.

It puts the burden on you to be a witness in your Jerusalem, your Judea, your Samaria, and also into the uttermost parts of the earth. That onus is on you.

No, you are placing the burden on me; and you are altering the scriptures to make them fit your great commission.

You, therefore, are held responsible before God for the eternal destiny of the souls of others by the omission of this command.....

Do you also teach this horrendous lie to the flock that you tend?

 

[Amy.G]

Ky, I'm with you on this one. If I'm responsible for the eternal destiny of others, does that not give me more power than God?

 

[Old Union Brother]

I'm with you Kyredneck. God calls, God saves, It is not in my power to save anyone.

 

[Don]

I don't believe DHK was attempting to imply that you, me, or anyone else "saves" anyone.

If you don't feel you have any responsibility to preach the Word, in season or out, then why was the man who hid his talent rebuked for doing so when his Lord returned?

-----
Edited to add:
Also, if you don't feel you have any responsibility for helping people stay on the wrong path, then why are there so many verses (which have been presented through this thread) indicating that those who lead others astray will be held accountable?

Yes, each of those people will have to answer for their own choices and actions...but scripture seems pretty clear that each of us will also answer for what we teach, preach, etc. that influences those choices and actions.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I think ya'll are missing the division.

We are responsible for spreading the Word and if we fail or if we mislead there will be consequence to US from God. However, we are only responsible for our own sin: that of not spreading the gospel.

The person who did not hear the word, or the soul who believed Jim Jones twist of the scripture is solely responsible for not finding someone who spoke the truth. His soul is in his own hands, however,

Jim Jones is in BIG trouble for being a false prophet. God's consequence for those who fail to warn is not the loss of another's soul, but apparently the potential loss of his own. (or perhaps the loss of rewards if that person be truely a Christian)

 

[kyredneck]

....If you don't feel you have any responsibility to preach the Word....Also, if you don't feel you have any responsibility for helping people stay on the wrong path...

Why is it that you feel the need to resort to such smear tactics which are far from the truth concerning me?

It is God's good pleasure to save those that believe through the preaching of the gospel. I literally rejoice at the preaching of the gospel. I deny the implication that I (or anyone else) will in any way be responsible for anyone burning in hell for all eternity. God has never put such a burden on any of us, but there are men who will do it with no hesitation.

 

[Don]

Why is it that you feel the need to resort to such smear tactics which are far from the truth concerning me?

Wasn't intended to be a smear, nor was it intended to be directed at you or any other particular individual. My apologies for the perceived offense.

It is God's good pleasure to save those that believe through the preaching of the gospel. I literally rejoice at the preaching of the gospel. I deny the implication that I (or anyone else) will in any way be responsible for anyone burning in hell for all eternity. God has never put such a burden on any of us, but there are men who will do it with no hesitation.

"In any way...responsible" -- disagree for the reasons presented throughout this thread. If you rejoice at the preaching of the gospel, believe that it is God's good pleasure to save those that believe through the preaching of the gospel, then how can you possibly deny the implication that preaching a false gospel helps keep others on the path to hell?

 

[webdog]

Ky, I'm with you on this one. If I'm responsible for the eternal destiny of others, does that not give me more power than God?

...not if He gave you the responsibility, no? I know people spend eternity in hell of their own volition...but God still holds us accountable for not sharing the Good News.

 

[Amy.G]

...not if He gave you the responsibility, no? I know people spend eternity in hell of their own volition...but God still holds us accountable for not sharing the Good News.

I agree. I posted that earlier in the thread. I'm accountable for my actions only, not the actions of someone who rejects Christ. That is on their own head.