Indisputable evidence of the effectual call

[convicted1]

Willis, I agree that the effectual call is right there in 1Peter 2.

Now just keep reading down to verse 21 and you'll see what the calling is unto

In mine understanding, it's a calling into reconciliation, and also into discipleship. We are to walk in the steps of Christ. Sheep follow their shepherd, we follow our Shepherd, Christ Jesus...

 

[The Biblicist]

In mine understanding, it's a calling into reconciliation, and also into discipleship. We are to walk in the steps of Christ. Sheep follow their shepherd, we follow our Shepherd, Christ Jesus...

Right! So as long as you don't confuse the two with each other we are fine. However, Paul is speaking about the creation of a believing heart by an affectual call that removes INNER darkness,whereas Peter is speaking about the consequence of that call in regard to OUTER darkness or the darkness in this world (not in our hearts) that is a CONSEQUENCE of inner darkness.

As a consequence of the inner creation of light in our hearts we are transformed into a "peculiar people" in regard to the OUTER darkness in this world.

 

[JamesL]

Right! So as long as you don't confuse the two with each other we are fine. However, Paul is speaking about the creation of a believing heart by an affectual call that removes INNER darkness,whereas Peter is speaking about the consequence of that call in regard to OUTER darkness or the darkness in this world (not in our hearts) that is a CONSEQUENCE of inner darkness.

As a consequence of the inner creation of light in our hearts we are transformed into a "peculiar people" in regard to the OUTER darkness in this world.

I agree here. A call to follow.

But this is the only NT mention of Call & Light together.

I see no mention anywhere of a call to have light shone in our hearts

 

[The Biblicist]

Willis, I agree that the effectual call is right there in 1Peter 2.

Now just keep reading down to verse 21 and you'll see what the calling is unto

James, look at the context. It is a MIXED context between salvation and service with the emphasis upon service:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Peter is bringing cause and consequence together as a WHOLISTIC view of salvation. Paul is not doing that. Paul is explicitly explaining how INNER darkness is eradiated without any thought to the EXTERNAL implications.

Paul says the same thing as Peter in Galatians 5:25 when he says "if we LIVE in the Spirit we ought to WALK in the Spirit" one is cause the other is consequence.

Likewise, to be "called OUT of Darkness" is not the same as light being created IN our hearts. Peter is looking at the external consequences while Paul is looking at the internal cause of the effectual call.

 

[The Biblicist]

James, look at the context. It is a MIXED context between salvation and service with the emphasis upon service:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Peter is bringing cause and consequence together as a WHOLISTIC view of salvation. Paul is not doing that. Paul is explicitly explaining how INNER darkness is eradiated without any thought to the EXTERNAL implications.

Paul says the same thing as Peter in Galatians 5:25 when he says "if we LIVE in the Spirit we ought to WALK in the Spirit" one is cause the other is consequence.

Likewise, to be "called OUT of Darkness" is not the same as light being created IN our hearts. Peter is looking at the external consequences while Paul is looking at the internal cause of the effectual call.

One final clarification that may prove to help understand my point.

Peter is speaking about the WHOLE PERSON being called OUT of darkness.

Paul is not speaking about the whole person but only the HEART CONDITION.

Peter has in view both the internal and external darkness but Paul has only in view the internal darkness.

The effectual call of light IN the heart also results in the call OUT of this world system.

 

[JamesL]

James, look at the context. It is a MIXED context between salvation and service with the emphasis upon service....

.... Likewise, to be "called OUT of Darkness" is not the same as light being created IN our hearts. Peter is looking at the external consequences while Paul is looking at the internal cause of the effectual call.

I get all that, and I agree with you.

My question is - How do you find "Effectual Call" in Paul's words about light shining into darkness?

Paul uses neither word - Effectual or Call

Is it a case of having doctrine in hand first?

 

[The Biblicist]

I get all that, and I agree with you.

My question is - How do you find "Effectual Call" in Paul's words about light shining into darkness?

Paul uses neither word - Effectual or Call

Is it a case of having doctrine in hand first?

Very simple. Look at what Paul uses as an anology for putting light in the dark heart! "For God COMMANDED the light to shine". This is a direct reference to Genesis 1:2-3. How did God put light in a dark heart? THE VERY SAME WAY HE PUT LIGHT IN A DARK WORLD by SPEAKING IT (calling it) into existence as a creative action.

 

[JamesL]

Very simple. Look at what Paul uses as an anology for putting light in the dark heart! "For God COMMANDED the light to shine". This is a direct reference to Genesis 1:2-3. How did God put light in a dark heart? THE VERY SAME WAY HE PUT LIGHT IN A DARK WORLD by SPEAKING IT (calling it) into existence as a creative action.

lol

I guess that takes us back to page 1

Which scenario best fits the intent of the OP?

1) light is called into an unbeliever
2) light is called into a believer
3) unbeliever is called into the light
4) believer is called into the light

You've got to connect the dots a little better, because the words you're using - effectual call - are found nowhere in the passage you're using.

I know how the Protestant doctrine of effectual call works, and that's my paradigm for trying to piece together what you're getting at.

Are you approaching this subject from the Protestant ordo salutis?

I saw you in a discussion about lapsarianism in another thread, where you disagreed with Protestant. So...

Where are you coming from, so I can better grasp where you're going?

 

[The Biblicist]

lol

I guess that takes us back to page 1




You've got to connect the dots a little better, because the words you're using - effectual call - are found nowhere in the passage you're using.

I know how the Protestant doctrine of effectual call works, and that's my paradigm for trying to piece together what you're getting at.

Are you approaching this subject from the Protestant ordo salutis?

I saw you in a discussion about lapsarianism in another thread, where you disagreed with Protestant. So...

Where are you coming from, so I can better grasp where you're going?

If the introductory words "For God commanded the light to shine out of darkness" do not provide you with a very easy to see illustration of an effectual call - calling into existence something that did not previously exist simply by divine fiat, then no amount of explanation on my part will help.

If you can't relate those introductory words with his application, then I can't help you. If those words do not relate to his application then boy what a poor choice of words by Paul.

Do you actually think that light in Genesis 1:2-3 had SELF-HELP or formed an AGREEMENT with God to occur??? May I ask what do you think an effectual call is? How would you characterize just speaking something into existence, if that is not best described as an effectual call?????? Just curious?

 

[jonathan.borland]

LOL. That's basically what Calvin says on his little reprobation rant on Rom 9:22.

But if we wish fully to understand Paul, almost every word must be examined. He then argues thus, — There are vessels prepared for destruction, that is, given up and appointed to destruction: they are also vessels of wrath, that is, made and formed for this end, that they may be examples of God’s vengeance and displeasure. If the Lord bears patiently for a time with these, not destroying them at the first moment, but deferring the judgment prepared for them, and this in order to set forth the decisions of his severity, that others may be terrified by so dreadful examples, and also to make known his power, to exhibit which he makes them in various ways to serve; and, further, that the amplitude of his mercy towards the elect may hence be more fully known and more brightly shine forth;

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL. That's basically what Calvin says on his little reprobation rant on Rom 9:22.

But if we wish fully to understand Paul, almost every word must be examined. He then argues thus, — There are vessels prepared for destruction, that is, given up and appointed to destruction: they are also vessels of wrath, that is, made and formed for this end, that they may be examples of God’s vengeance and displeasure. If the Lord bears patiently for a time with these, not destroying them at the first moment, but deferring the judgment prepared for them, and this in order to set forth the decisions of his severity, that others may be terrified by so dreadful examples, and also to make known his power, to exhibit which he makes them in various ways to serve; and, further, that the amplitude of his mercy towards the elect may hence be more fully known and more brightly shine forth;

"fitted" does not mean predestinated. He is referring to their natural condition - fallen rebellious mankind who deserve judgement justly.

 

[The American Dream]

What about this verse?

2 Peter 1


19 So we have seen and proved that what the prophets said came true. You will do well to pay close attention to everything they have written, for, like lights shining into dark corners, their words help us to understand many things that otherwise would be dark and difficult. But when you consider the wonderful truth of the prophets’ words, then the light will dawn in your souls and Christ the Morning Star will shine in your hearts.

How do we know there was darkness before God created light? Isn't darkness merely an absence of light? Before God created light, there was no absence of light, because it did not exist.

 

[Dr. Bob]

While some whine, we will keep this wonderful thread open right here as it far surpasses the typical "Calvinist/Pelagian" fights we see so often.

 

[The Biblicist]

What about this verse?

2 Peter 1


19 So we have seen and proved that what the prophets said came true. You will do well to pay close attention to everything they have written, for, like lights shining into dark corners, their words help us to understand many things that otherwise would be dark and difficult. But when you consider the wonderful truth of the prophets’ words, then the light will dawn in your souls and Christ the Morning Star will shine in your hearts.

Peter is addressing Christians and the value of the prophetic word for Christian growth and illumination. Paul is addressing the darkened condition of the unregenerated heart (2 Cor. 4:2-3) and how that darkness is removed (2 Cor. 4:6). Two different contexts dealing two different topics.

How do we know there was darkness before God created light? .

Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

How do we know? God's Word explicitly tells you so. So it is simply a matter of taking God at His word.

 

[The Biblicist]

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

It is indisputable that:

1. Paul is directly making an analogy with Genesis 1:2-3 which is indisputably the effectual call of light out of darkness. God spoke light into existence - that is an effectual call.

2. Paul directly makes it analogous with how "the light of the knowlege of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" came into existence "in our hearts". He is indisputably claiming this light was called into existence in the heart, just as light was called into existence in the darkened world - an effectual call.

3. Paul's immediate context makes this analogy stronger by the fact that he has just described the unregenerate state of the heart as being in a state of DARKNESS (vv. 2-3) and it is that STATE OF DARKNESS that this analogy is called upon to describe how light REPLACES darkness and only the unregenerated state is in darkness as previously stated.

4. The spoken word that calls into existence this metaphorical light of knowledge in the darkened heart is the gospel, however, it is not the gospel has empowered by the preacher as verse 7 clearly denies that the power to do that rests in the preacher or his preaching. This is exactly stated to the Thessalonicans in 1 Thes.1:5 because when only man speaks the gospel it comes "in word only" but when God speaks the gospel it comes in power, in the HOly Spirit and in much assurance.

5. Furthermore this transaction occurs IN OUR HEARTS and NO MAN by NO human WORDS can work in that domain.

Moreover, he does not say POTENTIAL light is available to remove the darkness, but light is spoken into existence that does remove the darkness.

Again, if the words "For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness" does not indisputably convey what characterizes an effectual call then what kind of language or comparison could do it better????

Did not God simply speak light into existence and there "was" light as a consequence? That is effectual and that was called into existence by words spoken by God.

 

[The American Dream]

Again, if the words "For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness" does not indisputably convey what characterizes an effectual call then what kind of language or comparison could do it better????

Did not God simply speak light into existence and there "was" light as a consequence? That is effectual and that was called into existence by words spoken by God.

Thanks for sharing that. Never noticed that but it makes sense.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thanks for sharing that. Never noticed that but it makes sense.

Your quite welcome.

 

[The Biblicist]

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

It is indisputable that:

1. Paul is directly making an analogy with Genesis 1:2-3 which is indisputably the effectual call of light out of darkness. God spoke light into existence - that is an effectual call.

2. Paul directly makes it analogous with how "the light of the knowlege of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" came into existence "in our hearts". He is indisputably claiming this light was called into existence in the heart, just as light was called into existence in the darkened world - an effectual call.

3. Paul's immediate context makes this analogy stronger by the fact that he has just described the unregenerate state of the heart as being in a state of DARKNESS (vv. 2-3) and it is that STATE OF DARKNESS that this analogy is called upon to describe how light REPLACES darkness and only the unregenerated state is in darkness as previously stated.

4. The spoken word that calls into existence this metaphorical light of knowledge in the darkened heart is the gospel, however, it is not the gospel has empowered by the preacher as verse 7 clearly denies that the power to do that rests in the preacher or his preaching. This is exactly stated to the Thessalonicans in 1 Thes.1:5 because when only man speaks the gospel it comes "in word only" but when God speaks the gospel it comes in power, in the HOly Spirit and in much assurance.

5. Furthermore this transaction occurs IN OUR HEARTS and NO MAN by NO human WORDS can work in that domain.

Moreover, he does not say POTENTIAL light is available to remove the darkness, but light is spoken into existence that does remove the darkness.

Alright, lets advance this narrative. We have contextually demonstrated this is a fundemental transformation of the heart from an unregenerate darkened state (2 Cor. 4:2-3) to a regenerate enlightened state by the effectual call which is DIRECT REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE OF THE GOSPEL IN THE HEART. Light has replaced darkness in this heart.

Now, lets consider the nature of this kind of light - "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Paul describes the spiritual condition of the unregenerate state in the following language:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

The unregenerated heart is a SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED CONDITION from God who is LIGHT/LIFE/HOLLINESS and the effectual call is the reversal of that SEPARATED heart condition that replaces DARKNESS with LIGHT, reverses alienation from the life of God with LIFE and removes "uncleaness" with HOLINESS.

Again, the spiritual condition of the unregenerate heart is metaphorically described as "darkness". Just as "light" is a metaphor for "knowledge" in 2 Cor. 4:6 "darkness" is a metaphor of the "ignorance" and "blindness" that characterizes the unregenerate condition.

1. The effectual call that imparts KNOWLEDGE in 2 Cor. 4:6 by Divine fiat is the removal of "THE IGNORANCE" and "BLINDNESS" that characterizes the unregenerate heart in Ephesians 4:18-19.

2. Jesus Christ says, "THIS IS eternal life that they might KNOW THEE the only true God and Jesus Christ" - Jn. 17:3

3. 2 Corinthians is an effectual call that creates this "KNOWLEDGE of the glory OF GOD in the face of JESUS CHRIST" within the heart.

4. Hence, the effectual call is the Divine impartation of revelatory knowledge of the GLORY OF God in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Now, look at the characterization of the New Covenant:

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


1. The GLORY of God is his holiness and that is by divine impartation to the heart - "I will put my laws into their mind, and WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS"

2. The KNOWELDGE of God is by divine revelation - "For all shall know me, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST"

The Effectual Call is internal Divine Revelation IN THE HEART of the glory of God in the Person of Jesus Christ and "THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE" as this is bringing the spirit of man back into SPIRITUAL UNION with God who IS life, and who IS light and who IS holiness. The effectual call restores all three (light, life, holiness) thus transforming the heart into a new heart created (effectual call) in "righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24;Col. 3:10). This is what it means to be "CREATED in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10). The effectual call is regeneration, which is the revelation of Jesus Christ in the heart of his people. Remember the response of Jesus to the confession by Peter - "flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but my father in heaven" - KNOWING CHRIST in the heart comes by divine fiat, effectual calling, divine revelation. Remember Paul's characterization of coming to know Jesus Christ that it was God that "revealed Christ in me" just as it was God that revealed him in his mother's womb, thus God birthed him twice (physical and spiritual).

 

[kyredneck]

…Then there's the YLT's rendering of it....

--and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it…..

:thumbs: I like that one.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,
5 and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it. Jn 1 YLT

V 13 reveals that those ‘born from above’ are the ones perceiving and recieving ‘the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ’.

Neither, because the natural man does not receive the things of God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head.

I don't see anything in this scripture that might even remotely relate to my question. Would you care to elaborate?

….skewze me if I butt in and elaborate.

4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God`s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Pet 2

I agree with you that ‘his marvelous light’ is synonymous with ’the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ’, BUT, as you can see, there are those who have been blinded to this ‘knowledge’ so that they are unable to perceive or receive it.

There's no mention of the will of man in these passages.

Who’s stronger, God or the devil?

 

[Tom Butler]

Maybe Revelation 21:24 can help in this discussion:

And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.