Individual Election and Corporate Election

[Tsalagi]

Notice the Ephesians are already saints. They are faithful (Eph 2:8-9 tells us this faith is God's gracious gift). They are in Christ Jesus.
Verses 1 and 2 say the same thing that is continued in the chapter as well as in chapter 2.

You seem to be making my argument for me; I'm glad we agree on these points. What Paul describes in chapter 1 are eight things listed "in Christ" which belong to the "saints" being addressed, because they are saved. They clearly did not have things such as the sealing of the Spirit or spiritual blessings in heaven before they were saved. There is simply no warrant in chapter 1 for arbitrarily picking two things out of the list and deciding that people already had them before they were saved and before they were ever born, while the rest came afterward. Paul makes no such distinction.

Because Jesus Christ is righteous, all those now "in Him" share in His righteousness. We do not share His righteousness until we are in Him. Similarly, because Jesus Christ was foreknown and elect before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8), all who are "in Him" share that election. We are not elect until we are in Him. Your view would rob the Lord Jesus of His divine election and assign it to inscrutably selected fallen individuals. That's what I'd call man-centered salvation.

 

[AustinC]

You seem to be making my argument for me; I'm glad we agree on these points. What Paul describes in chapter 1 are eight things listed "in Christ" which belong to the "saints" being addressed, because they are saved. They clearly did not have things such as the sealing of the Spirit or spiritual blessings in heaven before they were saved. There is simply no warrant in chapter 1 for arbitrarily picking two things out of the list and deciding that people already had them before they were saved and before they were ever born, while the rest came afterward. Paul makes no such distinction.

Because Jesus Christ is righteous, all those now "in Him" share in His righteousness. We do not share His righteousness until we are in Him. Similarly, because Jesus Christ was foreknown and elect before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8), all who are "in Him" share that election. We are not elect until we are in Him. Your view would rob the Lord Jesus of His divine election and assign it to inscrutably selected fallen individuals. That's what I'd call man-centered salvation.

They belong to the saints before the creation of the world. The saints were chosen and predestined to them purely by God's grace and by no other factor.
There is no robbing of God the Son in that the Trinity chose before the foundation of the world based soley upon their will to show grace to whom they willed.
Tsalagi, do you agree that God chose his sheep or do you think humans chose God?
You keep attempting to force God into your timeline, yet God is not bound in time. God saw me as redeemed before the foundation of the world.

 

[Tsalagi]

They belong to the saints before the creation of the world. The saints were chosen and predestined to them purely by God's grace and by no other factor.
There is no robbing of God the Son in that the Trinity chose before the foundation of the world based soley upon their will to show grace to whom they willed.
Tsalagi, do you agree that God chose his sheep or do you think humans chose God?
You keep attempting to force God into your timeline, yet God is not bound in time. God saw me as redeemed before the foundation of the world.

That's not the plain meaning of the text, sorry. God the Father elected His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, not you. The Word was with Him in the beginning, not you. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; He was chosen before the creation of the world, not you (1 Peter 1:20).

Why would anyone try to insert himself into the Son's place and usurp His election by the Father in eternity past? We are only elect after we are placed "in Him," because He alone is elect, in the same way that we are only sanctified, redeemed, sealed, and spiritually blessed after we are baptized into Him by the Holy Spirit at salvation.

Outside of Him we are nothing, and we are not "in Him" until we are saved by grace through faith. Without the Spirit's baptizing and sealing ministry, nobody is "in Him."

 

[AustinC]

That's not the plain meaning of the text, sorry. God the Father elected His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, not you. The Word was with Him in the beginning, not you. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; He was chosen before the creation of the world, not you (1 Peter 1:20).

Why would anyone try to insert himself into the Son's place and usurp His election by the Father in eternity past? We are only elect after we are placed "in Him," because He alone is elect, in the same way that we are only sanctified, redeemed, sealed, and spiritually blessed after we are baptized into Him by the Holy Spirit at salvation.

Outside of Him we are nothing, and we are not "in Him" until we are saved by grace through faith. Without the Spirit's baptizing and sealing ministry, nobody is "in Him."

Tsalagi, the plain meaning of the text is that the elect have been chosen and predestined from before the foundation of the world. That the the names of the elect have been known and chosen by God according to God's will, not according to our works. That the elect are placed in Christ at the time God has willed, yet have always been known and predestined by God to be in Christ, seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

Ephesians 1:3-4 proves your bolded assertion to be wrong.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

You ignored my question.

Does God choose sinners and save them or do sinners choose God, which causes God to save them?
The plain meaning of Ephesians (really the entire Bible) is that God chose before the foundation of the world.

 

[Tsalagi]

Tsalagi, the plain meaning of the text is that the elect have been chosen and predestined from before the foundation of the world. That the the names of the elect have been known and chosen by God according to God's will,

The Bible says this exactly nowhere.

not according to our works. That the elect are placed in Christ at the time God has willed, yet have always been known and predestined by God to be in Christ, seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

Being seated with Christ is an overcomer reward in the future kingdom, it is not for all believers and it has not happened yet (Revelation 3:21). Hate to break this to you, but we are presently not seated in the heavenlies with the Lord, nor are we holy and blameless (1 John 1:8).

Ephesians 1:3-4 proves your bolded assertion to be wrong.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

You ignored my question.

Does God choose sinners and save them or do sinners choose God, which causes God to save them?
The plain meaning of Ephesians (really the entire Bible) is that God chose before the foundation of the world.

Your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-4 only works if you leave out "in Him." The phrase is there for a reason, but your interpretation does without it. Why do you think election is never mentioned apart from Him? The election is His, not yours (1 Peter 1:20).

 

[Van]

Since 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes being chosen before creation, with or without faith, both the doctrines of Calvinism and Classical Arminianism are unbiblcal. And we have seen the typical defense, the chosen but not chosen appeal to absurdity.

Bottom line, scripture has both individual and corporate election, whether an individual like Abraham or God the Son, and corporately, like the descendants of Abraham or those Christ would redeem.

The difficulty is not in a lack of evidence for this truth, but in overcoming the presuppositions of those holding differing views.

 

[AustinC]

The Bible says this exactly nowhere.


Being seated with Christ is an overcomer reward in the future kingdom, it is not for all believers and it has not happened yet (Revelation 3:21). Hate to break this to you, but we are presently not seated in the heavenlies with the Lord, nor are we holy and blameless (1 John 1:8).


Your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-4 only works if you leave out "in Him." The phrase is there for a reason, but your interpretation does without it. Why do you think election is never mentioned apart from Him? The election is His, not yours (1 Peter 1:20).

Sigh, I read Ephesians 1 and 2 as it is spoken. You refuse to accept that the adopted children of God are in Christ, even before that point in time when they experienced being made alive with Christ in their life on earth.

Galatians 1:15-17
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

 

[Tsalagi]

Sigh, I read Ephesians 1 and 2 as it is spoken. You refuse to accept that the adopted children of God are in Christ, even before that point in time when they experienced being made alive with Christ in their life on earth.

Galatians 1:15-17
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

"In order that I might be saved" is not what follows the bolded words above.

 

[AustinC]

"In order that I might be saved" is not what follows the bolded words above.

I am not following your complaint.
God has spoken. I believe what the text says. Do you want something other than what the text says?

 

[Tsalagi]

I am not following your complaint.
God has spoken. I believe what the text says. Do you want something other than what the text says?

Paul isn't talking about what you are talking about. You claim that "the adopted children of God are in Christ, even before that point in time when they experienced being made alive with Christ in their life on earth." For support you use Galatians 1:15 "But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace." But Paul says he was set apart and called by grace "in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles." He was not set apart before he was born for salvation, he was set apart to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. Notice that he does not say anything about "in Christ" here because this is Paul's individual destiny, not one shared by all those "in Him."

 

[AustinC]

Paul isn't talking about what you are talking about. You claim that "the adopted children of God are in Christ, even before that point in time when they experienced being made alive with Christ in their life on earth." For support you use Galatians 1:15 "But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace." But Paul says he was set apart and called by grace "in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles." He was not set apart before he was born for salvation, he was set apart to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. Notice that he does not say anything about "in Christ" here because this is Paul's individual destiny, not one shared by all those "in Him."

Are you arguing that there was a possibility that Paul could have preached the gospel, yet never have been saved, since you only apply the setting apart to be about preaching the gospel?
Honestly, can you not see how odd that argument is?
You desire to force the almighty God into a timeline in order for anything to be true. Yet, we were adopted, predestined and chosen before the foundation of the world. For us humans who live in time, we identify a moment in time where God redeemed us, yet God does not live in the timeline, yet operates according to his timeline.
Alas, you are working hard to limit God.

 

[Tsalagi]

Are you arguing that there was a possibility that Paul could have preached the gospel, yet never have been saved, since you only apply the setting apart to be about preaching the gospel?
Honestly, can you not see how odd that argument is?
You desire to force the almighty God into a timeline in order for anything to be true. Yet, we were adopted, predestined and chosen before the foundation of the world. For us humans who live in time, we identify a moment in time where God redeemed us, yet God does not live in the timeline, yet operates according to his timeline.
Alas, you are working hard to limit God.

Obviously Paul had to be a believer to preach the gospel, but you're changing the subject. He clearly says he was set apart before he was born to preach; the same is said about John the Baptist. That does not require their salvation to be predetermined, it simply means it was foreseen. There is a difference.

Again, you seem to be forcing your salvation theology into a passage that isn't talking about salvation. In your view God the Father predestined you and all other believers by name to be in Christ before we were born, before the foundation of the world, right?

 

[AustinC]

Obviously Paul had to be a believer to preach the gospel, but you're changing the subject. He clearly says he was set apart before he was born to preach; the same is said about John the Baptist. That does not require their salvation to be predetermined, it simply means it was foreseen. There is a difference.

Again, you seem to be forcing your salvation theology into a passage that isn't talking about salvation. In your view God the Father predestined you and all other believers by name to be in Christ before we were born, before the foundation of the world, right?

Correct.
God is not in time, therefore all things in time happen simultaneously with God. This means before the foundation of the world we were already in Christ, yet as humans we experience that truth in time, on a timeline.
It seems you desire to limit God.

 

[Tsalagi]

Correct.
God is not in time, therefore all things in time happen simultaneously with God. This means before the foundation of the world we were already in Christ, yet as humans we experience that truth in time, on a timeline.
It seems you desire to limit God.

The timeline is in the Bible, it's not from me - that's why the word "before" is in the passage. Only you see God as limited by placing us in Christ at the point of faith rather than in eternity past. I see no such limitation.

But here's the point of my previous question. You say it is correct that God the Father placed us in Christ before birth, and you believe Galatians 1:15 reinforces that truth. However, if you go back and read that verse carefully you will find that Paul says he was set apart and called to preach by Jesus Christ, not by the Father. That's a problem for your interpretation, to say the least.

 

[AustinC]

The timeline is in the Bible, it's not from me - that's why the word "before" is in the passage. Only you see God as limited by placing us in Christ at the point of faith rather than in eternity past. I see no such limitation.

But here's the point of my previous question. You say it is correct that God the Father placed us in Christ before birth, and you believe Galatians 1:15 reinforces that truth. However, if you go back and read that verse carefully you will find that Paul says he was set apart and called to preach by Jesus Christ, not by the Father. That's a problem for your interpretation, to say the least.

How is that a problem. Is Jesus not God?
Let me ask this. Are you an open theology adherent?

 

[Salty]

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[Tsalagi]

How is that a problem. Is Jesus not God?
Let me ask this. Are you an open theology adherent?

I don't know what that is. I am a Bible adherent. Scripture does not say what you are saying. From my point of view you have been misled into claiming Christ's election for yourself.

Ask, seek, and knock, my brother.

 

[Salty]

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