Individual Election

[AustinC]

Jesus intercessory prayer reveals God's elective work.

John 17:1-26
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself,that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[Van]

The Acronym ELECT presents the actual biblical doctrine of Election:

1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then subsequently chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones.

Zombie post from Zombie thread...

 

[Dave G]

A pastor gave me this interpretation of the "Free Will vs Election" issue: We humans look at it as "Whosoever Will May Come....and so whosoever wills Does come" ..... "God looks at it as: Predestined by His divine will." He compared it to fabulously wealthy man dangling a coin in front of a poor helpless beggar. The beggar grabs that coin, but in reality it was that very wealthy man who had all the money in the world placing that coin so that the beggar could take for his own. (I don't know if this is a valid illustration for any & all circumstances, but IMHO, it makes sense to me. Comments?

I've heard something similar to that before as well,
only the analogy was that God marks a doorway with a sign over it that says, " Whosoever will may come".

When those who have believed on Christ "step through" the doorway,
they "discover" a sign placed over the other side that says, " Chosen from the foundation of the world".

That was how one of my former pastors taught it...
but he left it right there and never went beyond that.
When asked further, he told people that election was a mystery, and that there are some things in God's word that we cannot know for sure because they are not intended to be fully understood.

Yet, from my perspective, he never actually believed what is developed in Romans 8:29-30 and Romans 9:13-24...
that it was God's express purpose to prepare some of us "vessels" to show His grace to,
and to prepare the rest for His eternal judgment;
To only allow those that were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified, into His presence in the first place.

He never taught that a person's name was written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world,
as Revelation 17:8 states,
and he never taught that being with the Lord is an inheritance ( Psalms 16:5 ) prepared from the foundation of the world for those that are blessed of God as Matthew 25:34 states...


One that was reserved only for those who have believed ( or will believe ) on His Son and love Him, from the heart.
That is what I believe, and that is what I see developed, in detail, in the Scriptures.


May God bless you, sir.

 

[Dave G]

The Acronym ELECT presents the actual biblical doctrine of Election:

I'll trust His words, Van.

But thanks for the helpful acronym, even though I disagree with almost all of it...
except for the 5th one.

Zombie post from Zombie thread...

Hadn't noticed,
But since you mention it, I see an origin date of 2012.

 

[Van]

I'll trust His words, Van.

But thanks for the helpful acronym, even though I disagree with almost all of it...
except for the 5th one.

Hadn't noticed.

From my side of the street, you trust in the TULIP, not TRUTH

 

[Dave G]

From my side of the street, you trust in the TULIP, not TRUTH

I'm sorry to read that.

But from my side of the street, you're rejecting His words out-of-hand because you don't actually believe what's written.
Someday I hope that that changes.


May God bless you with wisdom, knowledge and patience, my friend.

 

[Van]

I'm sorry to read that.

But from my side of the street, you're rejecting His words out-of-hand because you don't actually believe what's written.
Someday I hope that that changes.

May God bless you with wisdom, knowledge and patience, my friend.

I am the one that believes what is written, such as God loves humanity, and your doctrine rewrites verse after verse.

 

[Van]

The rewrites:

God loves humanity versus God loves the elect of humanity
Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, versus Christ laid down His life for the elect only.
We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth versus chosen for salvation without regard to any of our characteristics.

 

[AustinC]

I am the one that believes what is written, such as God loves humanity, and your doctrine rewrites verse after verse.

So you reject John 17, which refutes your claim?

 

[Paul from Antioch]

A pastor gave me this interpretation of the "Free Will vs Election" issue: We humans look at it as "Whosoever Will May Come....and so whosoever wills Does come" ..... "God looks at it as: Predestined by His divine will." He compared it to fabulously wealthy man dangling a coin in front of a poor helpless beggar. The beggar grabs that coin, but in reality it was that very wealthy man who had all the money in the world placing that coin so that the beggar could take for his own. (I don't know if this is a valid illustration for any & all circumstances, but IMHO, it makes sense to me.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

This probably won't resolve this issue to anyone's liking, but here's some lines supposedly taken from an old poem or hymn I heard years ago: "'It's not that I did choose Thee, for Lord, that cannot be. This heart would still refuse Thee had Thou not chosen me. Thou from the sin that stained me has cleansed me & set me free. Of old Thou has ordained me, that I should live for Thee. My heart owns none before Thee. For Thy rich grace I thirst. This knowing, if I love Thee, Thou must have loved me first."

 

[Paul from Antioch]

The rewrites:

God loves humanity versus God loves the elect of humanity
Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, versus Christ laid down His life for the elect only.
We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth versus chosen for salvation without regard to any of our characteristics.

There are some that would make a distinction to the adjective "all." Some would add to this phrase to that "all" doesn't necessarily mean "all without exception," but rather "all without DISTINCTION." IOW, they would insert this phrase where the Bible talks about the extent of Christ's redeeming Blood. The way one would interpret where God's Word mentions the extent of Christ's redeeming Blood would, I assume, depend upon one's interpretation of the relevant passages that refer to the extent of Christ's redeeming Blood.

 

[Dave G]

I am the one that believes what is written,

Van,
If you're so inclined,
Please tell me what is written here...

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).


" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

" not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:5-7 )

such as God loves humanity,

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." ( Psalms 5:5 ). <------ "Leasing" here is Late Middle English for "lies" / "untruths".

and your doctrine rewrites verse after verse.

Please explain to me how "my doctrine" is rewriting these.

What I've given are the words on the page,
and nothing more.

No narrative, nothing but the words and some careful underlining.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Van,
If you're so inclined,
Please tell me what is written here...

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).


" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

" not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:5-7 )

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." ( Psalms 5:5 ). <------ "Leasing" here is Late Middle English for "lies" / "untruths".

Please explain to me how "my doctrine" is rewriting these.

What I've given are the words on the page,
and nothing more.

No narrative, nothing but the words and some careful underlining.

I THOUGHT that we knew that some people won't be in heaven....if that's the case, why must we humans continually seek to know what we aren't privy to God's "Secret knowledge?"

 

[Dave G]

@Van:
On second thought, please disregard my post # 73.

I ask your forgiveness for insinuating that you're not believing God's words ( in post # 64 ),
and my further reply in post # 66 that stated that I thought that you were not believing what is written.

Please accept my apologies in the spirit in which they are given.

For the record, I disagree with you on this subject,
and I propose that we leave it at that.


May God bless you, sir, in many ways.

 

[Van]

There are some that would make a distinction to the adjective "all." Some would add to this phrase to that "all" doesn't necessarily mean "all without exception," but rather "all without DISTINCTION." IOW, they would insert this phrase where the Bible talks about the extent of Christ's redeeming Blood. The way one would interpret where God's Word mentions the extent of Christ's redeeming Blood would, I assume, depend upon one's interpretation of the relevant passages that refer to the extent of Christ's redeeming Blood.

God loves humanity
Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all,
We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth

Are you saying Christ did not lay down His life as a ransom for all? Sounds like a rewrite to me...

 

[Van]

So you reject John 17, which refutes your claim?

John 17 totally supports the biblical view presented in my post...

 

[Van]

Van,
If you're so inclined,
Please tell me what is written here...

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).
" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).
" not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:5-7 )

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." ( Psalms 5:5 ). <------ "Leasing" here is Late Middle English for "lies" / "untruths".

Please explain to me how "my doctrine" is rewriting these.
What I've given are the words on the page,
and nothing more.
No narrative, nothing but the words and some careful underlining.

Nothing you quoted disagrees with my view. I have refuted your oft cited Acts 13:48 many times and you have yet to address it.

You have implied that "from the beginning" refers to before the beginning of creation which is hogwash. From the beginning refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.
And again I have addressed that being given to Christ is God placing an individual into Christ by reason of crediting their own faith as righteousness. Again, you just repeat your claim and avoid any effort at rebuttal.
And I have explained many times to be "of God" is to be open and receptive to God's word.
You implication my view is not that we are saved according to His mercy if simply yet another false charge.
Everyone saved has been justified and made heirs of our inheritance of eternal life.
Your implication God cannot both love and hate at the same time is unbiblical nonsense.

I presented your doctrine driven rewrites, which once again you failed to address.
God loves humanity, John 3:16,
God desires all people to be saved.
We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Did you answer the question, did Christ lay down His life as a ransom for all? I did not see a no, which is the Limited Atonement bogus view you hold. Why hide your bogus views under a cloud of misdirection?

 

[Dave G]

Nothing you quoted disagrees with my view. I have refuted your oft cited Acts 13:48 many times and you have yet to address it.

You have implied that "from the beginning" refers to before the beginning of creation which is hogwash. From the beginning refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.
And again I have addressed that being given to Christ is God placing an individual into Christ by reason of crediting their own faith as righteousness. Again, you just repeat your claim and avoid any effort at rebuttal.
And I have explained many times to be "of God" is to be open and receptive to God's word.
You implication my view is not that we are saved according to His mercy if simply yet another false charge.
Everyone saved has been justified and made heirs of our inheritance of eternal life.
Your implication God cannot both love and hate at the same time is unbiblical nonsense.

I presented your doctrine driven rewrites, which once again you failed to address.
God loves humanity, John 3:16,
God desires all people to be saved.
We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Did you answer the question, did Christ lay down His life as a ransom for all? I did not see a no, which is the Limited Atonement bogus view you hold. Why hide your bogus views under a cloud of misdirection?

Van,

I'm not going to debate with you any longer.
It also does not honor the Lord's commands for us to continue, since we are in such profound disagreement.

Besides, it's time I took my leave of this thread.

Good evening to you.

 

[Van]

Van,

I'm not going to debate with you any longer.
It does not honor the Lord for us to continue, since we are in such profound disagreement.

Besides, it's time I took my leave of this thread.

Good evening to you.

Once again, not a word addressing the bogus views of Calvinism. What a waste of effort...