Individual Election

[AustinC]

John 17 totally supports the biblical view presented in my post...

So you promote individual election, great!

 

[AustinC]

Once again, not a word addressing the bogus views of Calvinism. What a waste of effort...

Keep falling on your crutch...

 

[ivdavid]

It is us believing in Him and on Him.
But I think that perhaps an example of my own understanding of what it is that Christ did for His sheep would be helpful.

According to Hebrews 12:2,
He is the Author and Finisher of faith...
The faith that believers do things by, and some of these acts are in many places... especially Hebrews 11.
It is also said to be "of" Christ in various passages such as Galatians 2:16-20:

" We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Here I notice that Paul is stating that he is actually living by the faith of the Lord Jesus...not his own faith.
To me, the word "of" here is associated with the concepts of "by" or "from".

Therefore, to be "of" something is to have originated with or belonged to it, at least at one point.
As an example, the phrase "of the Gentiles" in verse 15 means "belonging to", or "originating from",
or the phrase "Saul of Tarsus".

Greek support:
Galatians 2:20 Interlinear: with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Galatians 2:20 Greek Text Analysis
Galatians 2 Greek interlinear, parsed and per word translation, free online

Very interesting. I'd like to spend more time on this myself.
But you'd agree that "(my) faith (proceeding out) of Christ" and "Christ's faith" have very different connotations, right?

 

[ivdavid]

I see reprobation, or the Lord actually blinding people ( or allowing people to be blinded ) to the Gospel,
as being in accordance with the Scriptures in many places:

Completely in agreement. I too see reprobation in Scriptures. What I don't see is predestined reprobation. On the contrary, such a hardening always follows such a person filling up their measure of sins (Matt 23:32, Gen 15:16) - but predestination is before any person's good or evil.

 

[ivdavid]

God loves humanity
Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all,
We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth

Are you saying Christ did not lay down His life as a ransom for all? Sounds like a rewrite to me...

Not rewrites but capturing entire truths. Your sentences could be extended further...
1. God loves humanity...until man fills up his measure of sins at which point God turns in His wrath against Him. God also shows mercy to all humanity...until He takes it away from some while promising for His mercy never to depart with others (2Sam 7:15).

2. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all...His blood covering their sins contingent upon their enduring faith in Him. Some see their faith fall away while the children of God are promised never to fall.

3. We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth...God working in His children, causing them to walk in His ways and will and do according to His pleasure, noting without faith it's impossible to please Him.

 

[ivdavid]

You have implied that "from the beginning" refers to before the beginning of creation which is hogwash. From the beginning refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.

Why is the "creation-beginning" interpretation hogwash and how exactly did you arrive at your interpretation? Matt 19:4, 19:8, Mark 13:19, John 8:44 - how do you determine when this 'beginning' is from? I'd actually say John 6 describes the beginning to just be the beginning of that conversation even.

 

[Van]

So you promote individual election, great!

Duh

 

[Van]

Keep falling on your crutch...

Note the flow of mindless smear, devoid of content.

 

[Van]

Not rewrites but capturing entire truths. Your sentences could be extended further...
1. God loves humanity...until man fills up his measure of sins at which point God turns in His wrath against Him. God also shows mercy to all humanity...until He takes it away from some while promising for His mercy never to depart with others (2Sam 7:15).

2. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all...His blood covering their sins contingent upon their enduring faith in Him. Some see their faith fall away while the children of God are promised never to fall.

3. We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth...God working in His children, causing them to walk in His ways and will and do according to His pleasure, noting without faith it's impossible to please Him.

So you are saying God loves us until we sin? What absurd nonsense, God demonstrated His love for us while we were yet sinners!
And you seem to claim once in Christ, Christ will throw you out. Not how John 6:37 reads.
And you seem to claim 2 Thessalonians 2:13 means God did not choose individuals for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth.

Bottom line: God loves humanity, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and our individual election is by reason of God crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

Why is the "creation-beginning" interpretation hogwash and how exactly did you arrive at your interpretation? Matt 19:4, 19:8, Mark 13:19, John 8:44 - how do you determine when this 'beginning' is from? I'd actually say John 6 describes the beginning to just be the beginning of that conversation even.

Selectively referencing verses where the context indicates a reference to creation carries no weigh.

Luke 1:2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,
Here the idea is from the beginning of the physical life of Christ, including His mother Mary.

John 6:64
“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
Here the idea is from the beginning of His earthly relationship with them.

John 15:27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
Here Jesus is speaking to His disciples, thus from the beginning of His public ministry.

Act 26:4 “So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;
Here the reference is to the beginning of Paul's life.

2Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Here the action taken "from the beginning" is individual election through or by reason of faith in the truth. To push the meaning back before His death is untenable, for our faith includes His sacrifice for our sins.

 

[AustinC]

Note the flow of mindless smear, devoid of content.

We have noted you do that.

 

[ivdavid]

So you are saying God loves us until we sin?

Is that word-for-word what I'd written? God loves all through a multitude of sins until a measure of sin is filled up (Gen 15:16, Matt 23:32) at which point God turns in His wrath to harden and destroy them. He calls for repentance and desires them to be saved from destruction until they reject Him themselves and fill up their measure of sin, at which point they are fitted for destruction. Are you saying God loves sinners at the time He destroys them?

And you seem to claim once in Christ, Christ will throw you out. Not how John 6:37 reads.

Agreed on Jn 6:37. And no, I'm not claiming that those in Christ are lost - but there is the scenario where some believe for a while, having been washed and receiving the knowledge of the truth but then later fall away returning to the mud - I don't see these as born again in Christ but the faith is open to them nonetheless through God's initial grace. A clear example would be God's initial supernatural work in King Saul who later has God's mercy depart from him.

And you seem to claim 2 Thessalonians 2:13 means God did not choose individuals for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth.

"through" - yes. "by reason of" - no.
Just as sanctification of the Spirit is a work of God, one's believing the truth too is likewise a work of God in the Christian. If your theology doesn't permit God to cause man to do according to His pleasure, then that's a contradiction you'd probably have to reconcile - fits perfectly consistently within my doctrinal system.

 

[ivdavid]

Here the action taken "from the beginning" is individual election through or by reason of faith in the truth. To push the meaning back before His death is untenable, for our faith includes His sacrifice for our sins.

I understand why it's untenable in your belief system - again, that's not a contradiction in mine since the Christian's choosing can be determined way before any man is born or done any good or evil given that I see God capable of causing one to believe in the truth at any time of His choosing. I also grant that faith is kept open to any and all but the elect are reserved to be worked in by God perfectly. You'd have to show me evidence from Scriptures that proves God cannot cause His children of promise to walk in His ways for me to alter my beliefs.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I understand why it's untenable in your belief system - again, that's not a contradiction in mine since the Christian's choosing can be determined way before any man is born or done any good or evil given that I see God capable of causing one to believe in the truth at any time of His choosing. I also grant that faith is kept open to any and all but the elect are reserved to be worked in by God perfectly. You'd have to show me evidence from Scriptures that proves God cannot cause His children of promise to walk in His ways for me to alter my beliefs.

IMHO, all these posts, both pro & con this issue, are just attempts by mortal & finite folks that all of us (without exception!) are to grasp the truths of an infinite Creator God. IMHO, all these posts (without exception!), both pro and con, will NEVER solve anyone's ill-fated attempts to grasp what sin-cured & finite men that we all (without exception!) are! Why don't we all (without exception!) just relax & instead marvel at the reality that an infinite and sinless Creator God loved sinful & finite people that all of us (without exception!) are? John 3:16-17 states this fact! After all, Jesus Christ paid a debt He didn't owe for all of us, sinners who owed a debt we couldn't pay!

 

[ivdavid]

IMHO, all these posts, both pro & con this issue, are just attempts by mortal & finite folks that all of us (without exception!) are to grasp the truths of an infinite Creator God. IMHO, all these posts (without exception!), both pro and con, will NEVER solve anyone's ill-fated attempts to grasp what sin-cured & finite men that we all (without exception!) are! Why don't we all (without exception!) just relax & instead marvel at the reality that an infinite and sinless Creator God loved sinful & finite people that all of us (without exception!) are? John 3:16-17 states this fact! After all, Jesus Christ paid a debt He didn't owe for all of us, sinners who owed a debt we couldn't pay!

Amen. And I'd agree. The problem arises when not everyone agrees with your universal without-exception post. For one would say God doesn't love all sinful and finite people and another would say Christ did not pay the debt for all of us. And that's how you end up discussing Scriptures to grasp at these very truths first. At least these forums spell out the agenda pretty well .

I see the defense of the Gospel even in the NT epistles through thorough arguments and other references from Scriptures - I don't really begrudge this as means to explaining one's faith and challenging falsehood. As long as the intent is not to be simply right over another but to love each other enough to want to discuss only so that truth is established and all are benefited in Christ, this could even be blessed by God. I have actually learnt some valuable truths just discussing with others on these forums - so it's not entirely futile.

 

[Van]

We have noted you do that.

Now he doubles down, another smear anothe post devoid of content. This is all Calvinism is, twaddle from T to I.

 

[Van]

Is that word-for-word what I'd written? God loves all through a multitude of sins until a measure of sin is filled up (Gen 15:16, Matt 23:32) at which point God turns in His wrath to harden and destroy them. He calls for repentance and desires them to be saved from destruction until they reject Him themselves and fill up their measure of sin, at which point they are fitted for destruction. Are you saying God loves sinners at the time He destroys them?

You should know my view rests on specific references to scripture which clearly indicate your statement is false. No need to make up another falsehood and ask if it reflects scripture.

Agreed on Jn 6:37. And no, I'm not claiming that those in Christ are lost - but there is the scenario where some believe for a while, having been washed and receiving the knowledge of the truth but then later fall away returning to the mud - I don't see these as born again in Christ but the faith is open to them nonetheless through God's initial grace. A clear example would be God's initial supernatural work in King Saul who later has God's mercy depart from him.

Please do not use the Old Covenant to demonstrate how the New Covenant works. If God credits your faith as righteousness, He places you (gives you) in Christ and you are saved forever. You can believe till the cows come home, if God does not credit it, it does not result in the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ, justification, or eternal life.

"through" - yes. "by reason of" - no.
Just as sanctification of the Spirit is a work of God, one's believing the truth too is likewise a work of God in the Christian. If your theology doesn't permit God to cause man to do according to His pleasure, then that's a contradiction you'd probably have to reconcile - fits perfectly consistently within my doctrinal system.

Through (en used to show instrumentality) means by reason of. Denial carries no weight.
If your copy and paste theology does not permit God to require our own faith in His own Son, it is your theology that denies God's word.

 

[Van]

I understand why it's untenable in your belief system - again, that's not a contradiction in mine since the Christian's choosing can be determined way before any man is born or done any good or evil given that I see God capable of causing one to believe in the truth at any time of His choosing. I also grant that faith is kept open to any and all but the elect are reserved to be worked in by God perfectly. You'd have to show me evidence from Scriptures that proves God cannot cause His children of promise to walk in His ways for me to alter my beliefs.

Right, you create individuals in the mind of God before God created them without a shred of evidence.
The idea of objective bible study is to base belief on what scripture says God does, and not on the inventions of men supported by with God anything is possible. It is an absurd view!!

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Right, you create individuals in the mind of God before God created them without a shred of evidence.
The idea of objective bible study is to base belief on what scripture says God does, and not on the inventions of men supported by with God anything is possible. It is an absurd view!!

From the very beginning, the created beings as we all are, man has always, though ineffectively, attempted to grasp what his Eternal and Sovereign Creator God has chosen to keep secret to only Himself! "Their worship is a farce; for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God." (Matthew 15:9).