Individual freedom excommunicated organized doctrine

[rsr]

I'm not in favor of passing out a confessional or whatever they call it and ask people to sign off on it before they can join the local church.

The Lord brings someone to the door of our church, if it is indeed the Lord, when the Lord is exalted and so on, that person will conform his/her life to the truth of Scripture.

People are at different places in their lives. I'm not going to force some confessional on someone.

I certainly don't want to force a confession on anyone either, yet I do consider it might be prudent for new members to have some inkling of what the rest of the congregation believes and/or where they might expect to be at some future point in their faith journey.

 

[TCGreek]

I certainly don't want to force a confession on anyone either, yet I do consider it might be prudent for new members to have some inkling of what the rest of the congregation believes and/or where they might expect to be at some future point in their faith journey.

Confessions could be good, but invoke the words of Jesus:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matt 28:19-20, TNIV, emphasis added)

Teach new believers what Jesus commands. If they're transferring from another denomination, then that's another matter.

 

[Deacon]

Sorry for attributing the "bunk" quote to you RB. :flower:

I've been following aspects of the Enns controversy in the blog The Naked Bible , Peter Heiser has been examining the topic of inerrancy for the past two months.

You can close your eyes to evidences and retreat to a 18th century (or earlier) position of inerrancy found within the confessions or you can acknowledge the evidence and attempt to intergrate it into your beliefs... that's what Enns was attempting to do.

In any case, one of the first things I did when looking for a church was examine their 'Statement of Faith'.

Too many miss the mark by adding more than the Bible says.
I chose my church for many reasons but joined the fellowship knowing I had minor disagreements but on the whole believed alike.
In my experence, a 'one hour' confession would eliminate most people from a fellowship (too detailed);
those that do join probably do so without ever having read it.

Rob

 

[webdog]

Unbelievers are not members of our church.

Amen. This is an oxymoron by what the definition of "church" is.

If an unbeliever wants to partake of the Lord's Table, I'm not going to stop him or her.

Amen. It is not our place. This is one of those "tri-C's" (cultural church commandment)

You got Scripture for that.

There is none. Another "Tri-C"

 

[jcjordan]

The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses could join your church on your simple confession.

So could the devil.

 

[TCGreek]

Amen. This is an oxymoron by what the definition of "church" is.
Amen. It is not our place. This is one of those "tri-C's" (cultural church commandment)
There is none. Another "Tri-C"

RB,

Needs to realize how harmful his creeds and confessions could be. Maybe it's his use of them.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB,

Needs to realize how harmful his creeds and confessions could be. Maybe it's his use of them.

If I am understanding this statement correctly, your saying I need to understand how harmful my creeds and confessions could be. I do understand how they can be misused. But because I danger might exist in the use of them does not mean they should be abandoned. You say that we are commanded to disciple people and teach them all that Christ commanded. I agree. The creed can do just this. It is a tool by which we may teach the doctrines of God in a systematic and logical manner. It also aims at precision. An unwillingness to be precise in matters of doctrine, espeically in light of the errors assaulting the church I find to be irresponsible and symptomatic of the church's doctrinal fidelity and the elder's care of their flock.

The church professes to be the pillar and ground of the truth but is unwilling to publically declare it and defend it?

Those who are ardent defenders of the use of confessions are on record as saying, "When any generation is content to rely upon its theological heritage and refuses to explore for itself the riches of divine revelation, then declension is already under way and heterodoxy will be the lot of the succeeding generation." -Murray.

The use of a thorough confession does not mean a departure from Scripture. In fact, I believe it means a mark of honesty and integrity. Should not a man be what he says he is? Should not a church be what it says it is? Let a man or a church be without a public written record of what it affirms and when it is beguiled by satan it will have much darkness to hide in.

Here on the BB much discussion and debates are made and contention ensues over what it is someone believes. There is no ambiguity about what I believe. You don't have to sift through 1000s of unrelated posts as a public declaration of my faith, which I testify is that true faith once delievered to the saints. A clear and logical exposition of my faith is clearly laid out in the confession of my faith which is on public record for all to see.

And anyone on the BB has the right to hold me to it.

RB

 

[TCGreek]

If I am understanding this statement correctly, your saying I need to understand how harmful my creeds and confessions could be. I do understand how they can be misused. But because I danger might exist in the use of them does not mean they should be abandoned. You say that we are commanded to disciple people and teach them all that Christ commanded. I agree. The creed can do just this. It is a tool by which we may teach the doctrines of God in a systematic and logical manner. It also aims at precision. An unwillingness to be precise in matters of doctrine, espeically in light of the errors assaulting the church I find to be irresponsible and symptomatic of the church's doctrinal fidelity and the elder's care of their flock.

The church professes to be the pillar and ground of the truth but is unwilling to publically declare it and defend it?

Those who are ardent defenders of the use of confessions are on record as saying, "When any generation is content to rely upon its theological heritage and refuses to explore for itself the riches of divine revelation, then declension is already under way and heterodoxy will be the lot of the succeeding generation." -Murray.

The use of a thorough confession does not mean a departure from Scripture. In fact, I believe it means a mark of honesty and integrity. Should not a man be what he says he is? Should not a church be what it says it is? Let a man or a church be without a public written record of what it affirms and when it is beguiled by satan it will have much darkness to hide in.

Here on the BB much discussion and debates are made and contention ensues over what it is someone believes. There is no ambiguity about what I believe. You don't have to sift through 1000s of unrelated posts as a public declaration of my faith, which I testify is that true faith once delievered to the saints. A clear and logical exposition of my faith is clearly laid out in the confession of my faith which is on public record for all to see.

And anyone on the BB has the right to hold me to it.

RB

RB,

As I said, confessions and creeds can be helpful.

I rather an open Bible with the Spirit as my teacher than some human confession.

Confessions and creeds may be good for denominations, but if they seek to divide the body of Christ over disputable matters, I say throw them away.

What if I'm dispensational in my eschatology and your church confession is covenantal, I'm I not allowed to place membership there?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB,

As I said, confessions and creeds can be helpful.

I rather an open Bible with the Spirit as my teacher than some human confession.

Confessions and creeds may be good for denominations, but if they seek to divide the body of Christ over disputable matters, I say throw them away.

What if I'm dispensational in my eschatology and your church confession is covenantal, I'm I not allowed to place membership there?

To the first part of your reply, I offer a rebuke to you in the words of C.H. Spurgeon,

Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.

Concerning the second part of your question, in order to be a member of good standing at Berean Baptist these are the fundamentals we would expect:

A. The Holy Bible.
We believe and teach the inspiration, infallibility, inerrancy, and sufficiency of all sixty-six books of the Holy Bible as found in the original texts. We furthermore believe that God has providentially preserved His Holy Word throughout history so that we may confidently assert that we presently have authoritative copies of the Holy Scriptures.

B. The Holy Trinity.
We believe and teach that there is only one true and living God who exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each member of the Triune Godhead is distinct in His Person, yet one in essence, perfections, and immutable attributes.

C. The Person and Work of Christ.
We believe and teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. We therefore believe in the Lord Jesus' pre-existence before the world began, virgin birth, sinless life, substitutionary death on the cross, bodily resurrection from the dead, and ascension to God the Father, where He ever lives to make intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

D. Salvation by Grace Alone.
We believe and teach that salvation is a free gift of God's grace alone received through faith alone in the Person and finished work of Christ alone, apart from any meritorious
work(s) on the part of man. We believe that a sinner is converted to God when he or she, by God's grace, repents from sin and places their faith in Christ the Lord.

E. The Return of Christ.
We believe and teach that the Lord Jesus shall one day literally, personally, and visibly return to judge the quick and the dead. Those whose names are found in the Lamb's Book of Life shall enter into His rest and enjoy Him forever. Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life shall be thrown into the lake of fire where they shall suffer conscious torment and separation from God for all eternity.

As to the exhaustive particulars laid out in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, to be a member, you would be free to hold contrary views but not permitted to teach them.

 

[TCGreek]

To the first part of your reply, I offer a rebuke to you in the words of C.H. Spurgeon,



Concerning the second part of your question, in order to be a member of good standing at Berean Baptist these are the fundamentals we would expect:



As to the exhaustive particulars laid out in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, to be a member, you would be free to hold contrary views but not permitted to teach them.

What do you mean by rebuke?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

What do you mean by rebuke?

I mean it in the plain sense. Your response, I believe, was best replied in the first by a rebuke. You seem to be writing in a manner and taking an attitude that you are in no need of those who were in Christ before you. I think that is folly.

 

[TCGreek]

I mean it in the plain sense. Your response, I believe, was best replied in the first by a rebuke. You seem to be writing in a manner and taking an attitude that you are in no need of those who were in Christ before you. I think that is folly.

How many times have I written that confessions could be helpful?

Am I not clear on that?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

How many times have I written that confessions could be helpful?

Am I not clear in that?

Saying something could be something is not saying something is something. What you did say, that has given me the impression of a mistake is this:

"I rather an open Bible with the Spirit as my teacher than some human confession."

So I think Spurgeon's remark is very fitting for you. Do you not suppose the Christians in responding to the Arian heresy were taught by the Holy Spirit? Or those who wrote the Savoy? Or the 1689? Or the Westminster?

Sure, they are the works of men. No one is denying that. But there is much benefit in them for churches and individual Christians.

While you say you see there could be, or can be, a good use of them, the way you are writing gives the impression more of a disdain for it than anything else.

Honestly TC, if you have no public, written, confession of your faith (although most certainly you have an unwritten creed) then I really don't know what you believe. You have said that yours can simply be "Jesus is Lord." What Lord? does this mean master, or God? Is your Jesus created or uncreated? Is Jesus the Father or are the Father and the Son distinct?

Now, having seen you post I believe your orthodox on those points, so please let the questions not be miscontrued. But do you see the point?

RB

 

[TCGreek]

Saying something could be something is not saying something is something. What you did say, that has given me the impression of a mistake is this:

"I rather an open Bible with the Spirit as my teacher than some human confession."

So I think Spurgeon's remark is very fitting for you. Do you not suppose the Christians in responding to the Arian heresy were taught by the Holy Spirit? Or those who wrote the Savoy? Or the 1689? Or the Westminster?

Sure, they are the works of men. No one is denying that. But there is much benefit in them for churches and individual Christians.

While you say you see there could be, or can be, a good use of them, the way you are writing gives the impression more of a disdain for it than anything else.

Honestly TC, if you have no public, written, confession of your faith (although most certainly you have an unwritten creed) then I really don't know what you believe. You have said that yours can simply be "Jesus is Lord." What Lord? does this mean master, or God? Is your Jesus created or uncreated? Is Jesus the Father or are the Father and the Son distinct?

Now, having seen you post I believe your orthodox on those points, so please let the questions not be miscontrued. But do you see the point?

RB

I have a written confession.

But I still hold to simply, "Jesus is Lord." And when someone asks, It's an opportunity to take them to what the Bible says.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have a written confession.

But I still hold to simply, "Jesus is Lord." And when someone asks, It's an opportunity to take them to what the Bible says.

Ok. :godisgood: