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Infallibility or Ecumenical Error?

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
T2U,
Let's put your quote in terms you can understand.

"I have asked several questions (four to be specific) for a specific purpose. Your refusal to answer them, despite their immediate relevance to this arguement, demostrates, to me anyway, that you are not acting in good faith."

Does this clear things up.
DHK
Clear as mud. Try being more direct.

Ron
</font>[/QUOTE]1. Is it not true that Catholics randomly quote with authority the Church Fathers? But they pick and choose with great care which parts, for some of it is heresy.
2. Is it not true that the Catholics quote their popes with great authority? Here one also must be very careful, for there were some very wicked popes in the past who said and did some very wicked things.
3. Is it not true that the Catholics quote their theologians with great authority? Even though some are very liberal, and some are conservative, as is noted even today by the college of Cardinals.
4. Is it not true that all of the above shows a functional disunity in both the doctrine and the practice of the Catholic Church

Your problem all along is that you continue to avoid the questions asked of you.
DHK
 
Originally posted by DHK:
1. Is it not true that Catholics randomly quote with authority the Church Fathers? But they pick and choose with great care which parts, for some of it is heresy.
2. Is it not true that the Catholics quote their popes with great authority? Here one also must be very careful, for there were some very wicked popes in the past who said and did some very wicked things.
3. Is it not true that the Catholics quote their theologians with great authority? Even though some are very liberal, and some are conservative, as is noted even today by the college of Cardinals.
4. Is it not true that all of the above shows a functional disunity in both the doctrine and the practice of the Catholic Church

Your problem all along is that you continue to avoid the questions asked of you.
DHK[/qb]
Actually, I did already adress this.


"Of course, you fail (intentionally?) to differentiate between authoratative and noauthoratative sources. Not all sources are equal and not all are cited for the same purposes. To pretend that that are or must be is disingenuous to say the least."

Different sources are cited for different reasons. Some are authoratative, some are not.

When demonstrating what the Church teaches, authoratative sources are used.

When demonstrating what Christians in the early Church believed, nonauthoritative sources are often used.

Like I said, "Not all sources are equal and not all are cited for the same purposes. To pretend that that are or must be is disingenuous to say the least."

Ron


[ October 11, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Your problem all along is that you continue to avoid the questions asked of you.
DHK
Actually, I did already adress this.

"Of course, you fail (intentionally?) to differentiate between authoratative and noauthoratative sources. Not all sources are equal and not all are cited for the same purposes. To pretend that that are or must be is disingenuous to say the least."

Different sources are cited for different reasons. Some are authoratative, some are not.
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]You don't answer the questions, because either you cannot or will not.
Obviously all popes "ought" to have authority. You have just stated "some are authoritative and some are not." Tell me: Does Pope John Paul II speak with authority? Why or why not? How can one really know for sure? Is this just your "Catholic soul liberty," randomly choosing which words of his are authoritative and which are not?
DHK
 
Originally posted by DHK:
You don't answer the questions, because either you cannot or will not.
Obviously all popes "ought" to have authority. You have just stated "some are authoritative and some are not." Tell me: Does Pope John Paul II speak with authority? Why or why not? How can one really know for sure? Is this just your "Catholic soul liberty," randomly choosing which words of his are authoritative and which are not?
DHK
DHK, you are misrepresenting my words.

Various sources cited by Catholics have differing degrees of authority. That is not a problem because they are cited for various purposes.

No, not all that the Pope says is authoratative, nor is it all infallible.

You know this. Why are you playing this game?

Ron
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, you are misrepresenting my words.

Various sources cited by Catholics have differing degrees of authority. That is not a problem because they are cited for various purposes.

No, not all that the Pope says is authoratative, nor is it all infallible.

You know this. Why are you playing this game?

Ron
No, I actually did not know this Ron. I would assume that everything that the Pope says is authoritative. I did not speak of anything being infallible. I deliberately used the word authoritative. When I get behind the pulpit and preach to the people in my congregation, I do it with authority. Why? Because I speak from the Word of God. It is the final authority in all things concerning faith and practice. My point in all of this is that you do not have an authority, and are quite rapidly proving yourself to be without a any authoritative source. Sometimes the pope has authority; sometimes not. Sometimes you trust the church fathers; sometimes not. Quite frankly, in the Catholic Church you don't know who to believe do you? It is not as united and unified as you portray it to be. This is not a game. It is quite a serious situation. You and other Catholics make continuous allegations about the "disunity" of the evangelicals, but fail to look into your own backyard. You have no unity, no authoritative source to go to. Your various sources, quoted above, all disagree one with another. Where is there unity? Where is there authority? On the surface they look like beautiful like white-washed and cleansed sepulchres. But on the inside they are full of stinking, rotting, dead, men's bones.
DHK
 
Originally posted by DHK:
When I get behind the pulpit and preach to the people in my congregation, I do it with authority. Why? Because I speak from the Word of God. It is the final authority in all things concerning faith and practice.
Sorry to take the wind out of your sails...

but you preach merely your interpretation.

The final authority is whatever verses you pick and choose to support your beliefs.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by trying2understand:
Sorry to take the wind out of your sails..

but you preach merely your interpretation.

The final authority is whatever verses you pick and choose to support your beliefs.
The Bible only has one interpretation. It interprets itself. Peter warned about false teachers:
2Pet.3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

There are many (Catholics and others) who when the encounter Scriptures "hard to be understood...wrest, as they do also the other scriptures unto their own destruction." If you don't know the interpretation, wrest the interpretation out of its context and make it mean something it wasn't intended to mean.
I don't preach my interpretation at all. I preach the Bible. The Bible interprets itself. Nowhere are we commanded to interpret the Bible. So I don't interpret the Bible. That's where you have it all wrong.

2Tim.2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--This is the command that God has given us. We are to rightly divide the word of truth. This phrase is found only here in the New Testament, and it means handling right or correctly. Cutting with exactness or accuracy. That is then, to present the truth clearly and without blunders. I preach God's Word, not man's tradition. I proclaim the truth of God, not the Church Tradition. My authority is the Word of God, not the magesterium.

1Cor.2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. I know that if I were to die right now I would go to Heaven as surely as if I had already been there a thousand years. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit bearing witness with my spirit. (Romans 8:16).

Because I have received that Spirit, and He dwells within me, I am able to "know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1Cor.2:12). What is that? It is the Word of God, as Paul goes on to explain in verse 13, "which things also we speak."

However, if you do not have that witness in you, if you do not have the Holy Spirit residing in you; if there has been no real change in your life as a result of being regenerated by the Holy Spirit (not water), then there is no possible way you could understand any of what I would be trying to say to you, and Paul says as much in verse 14 of 1Cor.2:

1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Perhaps the Word of God is foolishness to you; perhaps you would rather stick to church traditions and church interpretations. You may be a natural (unsaved) man.
As for me, I proclaim the Word that God has given me. I don't interpret it, just rightly divide it.
DHK
 
Originally posted by DHK:
The Bible only has one interpretation. It interprets itself.
DHK[/QB]
How is it then that there is so much disagreement between Baptists on this board as to the "one interpretation"?

Are all who disagree with you wrong?

Are you claiming some special knowledge?

Ron
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
The Bible only has one interpretation. It interprets itself.
DHK
How is it then that there is so much disagreement between Baptists on this board as to the "one interpretation"?

Are all who disagree with you wrong?

Are you claiming some special knowledge?

Ron[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I think that when it comes to "Catholic doctrine" you will find the Baptists on this board fairly united as to what the Bible says about Catholic doctrine.
We are far more united than you portray us to be.
The Catholics are far more in disarray or disunity than you portray them to be.
DHK
 
Originally posted by DHK:
The Bible only has one interpretation. It interprets itself.
DHK
Posted by trying2understand:
How is it then that there is so much disagreement between Baptists on this board as to the "one interpretation"?

Are all who disagree with you wrong?

Are you claiming some special knowledge?

Ron
Posted by DHK:
I think that when it comes to "Catholic doctrine" you will find the Baptists on this board fairly united as to what the Bible says about Catholic doctrine.
We are far more united than you portray us to be.
The Catholics are far more in disarray or disunity than you portray them to be.
DHK
Thank you for the commentary, but you completely neglect to answer my questions. :rolleyes:

How is it then that there is so much disagreement between Baptists on this board as to the "one interpretation"?

Are all who disagree with you wrong?

Are you claiming some special knowledge?

Ron
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by trying2understand:
Thank you for the commentary, but you completely neglect to answer my questions.

How is it then that there is so much disagreement between Baptists on this board as to the "one interpretation"?

Are all who disagree with you wrong?

Are you claiming some special knowledge?
As to the "one interpretation," different individuals hold different views on various topics, but I am not sure what you are getting at. You need to be more specific.

All the Conservative Baptists (generally speaking the IFBers) agree with most of what I say. There is an element of liberal Baptists that will not. The reason for that is that the liberals do not always take the Word of God as their final authority. If they do, they will allegorize it and make it mean something then what it really says.

Special knowledge? Yes! I have the Holy Spirit residing in me. He illuminates my mind to the truths of His Word. His Spirit bears witness with my spirit. He will guide me into truth. He gives me understanding.
The natural (unsaved) mind can never understand these things.
DHK
 
Originally posted by DHK:
As to the "one interpretation," different individuals hold different views on various topics, but I am not sure what you are getting at. You need to be more specific.
Talk about begging the question! :rolleyes:

You said that there is "one interpretation" of Scripture (presumably that would be your interpretation :rolleyes: ), now you say that "different individuals hold different views on various topics"!

Which is it?

All the Conservative Baptists (generally speaking the IFBers) agree with most of what I say.
Gotta laugh, DHK.
laugh.gif
Do "all the Conservative Baptists" even know you, let alone what you say? How is it that you know what they agree with?

Special knowledge? Yes! I have the Holy Spirit residing in me. He illuminates my mind to the truths of His Word. His Spirit bears witness with my spirit. He will guide me into truth. He gives me understanding.
And you know this to be the case because...?

No doubt you are aware that all your "sola scriptura" buddies that interpret Scripture differnetly than you do make the same claim to being guided by the Holy Spirit?

So does the Holy Spirit lead different people to different truths? Or is somebody mistaken? How do you know for certain that it is not you who is mistaken?
The natural (unsaved) mind can never understand these things.
DHK
I find it interesting that in nearly every post directed to me, you find it necessary to make some sort of dig.

Doesn't seem very Christian to me. But again, I forgive you.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by DHK:
I would assume that everything that the Pope says is authoritative. I did not speak of anything being infallible. I deliberately used the word authoritative. When I get behind the pulpit and preach to the people in my congregation, I do it with authority. Why? Because I speak from the Word of God. It is the final authority in all things concerning faith and practice. My point in all of this is that you do not have an authority, and are quite rapidly proving yourself to be without a any authoritative source. Sometimes the pope has authority; sometimes not. Sometimes you trust the church fathers; sometimes not. Quite frankly, in the Catholic Church you don't know who to believe do you? It is not as united and unified as you portray it to be. This is not a game. It is quite a serious situation. You and other Catholics make continuous allegations about the "disunity" of the evangelicals, but fail to look into your own backyard. You have no unity, no authoritative source to go to. Your various sources, quoted above, all disagree one with another. Where is there unity? Where is there authority? On the surface they look like beautiful like white-washed and cleansed sepulchres. But on the inside they are full of stinking, rotting, dead, men's bones.
DHK
Instead of making vague and frivilous allegations which you cannot back up T2U, why not deal with the issues at hand. You quote your authorities, even the pope and then say he is not authoritative?? Kind of a big contradiction there isn't it? As I have said in the above quote, and there are many Baptist pastors here that will agree with me, when I stand in my pulpit and preach from the Word of God, I preach with authority for the Word of God is my authority--all the time. With no real authority, the Catholic Church is left in disarray.
DHK
 
Originally posted by DHK:
Instead of making vague and frivilous allegations which you cannot back up T2U, why not deal with the issues at hand.
What allegations?

You said there is "one interpretation" of Scripture. Why do you not answer my very direct and simple questions?

You quote your authorities, even the pope and then say he is not authoritative??
Is this a deliberate misrepresentation?

I said the "Constantine was not authoratative." It was your erroneous assumption that Constantine was Pope. Do you recall admitting that you had not read the thread before starting this accusation of me saying the Pope is not authoratative?

Please admit your error as publicly as you make your accusations.

Kind of a big contradiction there isn't it? As I have said in the above quote, and there are many Baptist pastors here that will agree with me, when I stand in my pulpit and preach from the Word of God, I preach with authority for the Word of God is my authority--all the time. With no real authority, the Catholic Church is left in disarray.
DHK
Unfortunately, my questions to you, which you do not adress, were concerning a differnt quote.

Posted by DHK:
All the Conservative Baptists (generally speaking the IFBers) agree with most of what I say. There is an element of liberal Baptists that will not. The reason for that is that the liberals do not always take the Word of God as their final authority. If they do, they will allegorize it and make it mean something then what it really says.
So again...

How is it then that there is so much disagreement between Baptists on this board as to the "one interpretation"?

Are all who disagree with you wrong?

Are you claiming some special knowledge?

Your "sola scriptura" buddies that interpret Scripture differently than you do make the same claim to being guided by the Holy Spirit?

So does the Holy Spirit lead different people to different truths? Or is somebody mistaken? How do you know for certain that it is not you who is mistaken?

Ron
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Instead of making vague and frivilous allegations which you cannot back up T2U, why not deal with the issues at hand. (DHK)
What allegations?
How is it then that there is so much disagreement between Baptists on this board as to the "one interpretation"?
Are all who disagree with you wrong?
The above allegations have previously been adequately answered. Your problem is that you don't like the answers provided. The only way that you will get a more specific answer is to ask a more specific question. Wherein do we disagree? Give some example of disagreement or of "interpretation" as you put it. For example: Do we (Fundamental Baptists) disagree in: Christology, pneumatology, ecclesiology, soteriology, etc. Give some specific examples, and then I will try to account for it. Don't just make vague accusations or allegations that have no substance to them. As I mentioned before, we all are in agreement that the Catholic Doctrine is wrong. Isn't that unity enough?


You said there is "one interpretation" of Scripture. Why do you not answer my very direct and simple questions?
I have answered them. You don't bother to read the answers or are not satisfied with them. Often you just mock.

quote:You quote your authorities, even the pope and then say he is not authoritative??Is this a deliberate misrepresentation?
Not at all. Go back and read what you have written in your own posts. Did you not say that even your present pope, Pope John Paul, does not speak authoritatively all the time? Would you like me to quote your very words? Some of what he says, then is authoritative, and some not. True or false? Is this not true of every pope. Not only is it true of every pope, it is also true of every Catholic theologian (both liberal and conservative), as well as every Church father (heretical and otherwise). You need to concede that in you church "authorities" you do not have anything "very" authoritative. We have the infallible Word of God as our final authority in all things pertaining to faith and practice.
This is what this thread is all about, is it not--infallibility. You will only find that in God's Word--never in a pope or religious organization.
DHK
 
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