INFANT BAPTISM IS SCRIPTURAL !

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Jude:
Infant baptism can be argued Scripturally, but that isn't the only consideration. One must ask, "what was the practice of the early church?" That is what is missing from many who defend 'believers baptism'.

Good question, but an even better one is this:

If the faith of a believing wife may save her husband as illustrated in scripture, why doesn't the baptism of a father or mother cover their infant?

If a man's faith saves his household, why doesn't a man's baptism also cover the household?

 

[A_Christian]

How old was Jesus when he was baptized----an
adult or an infant? Are we not to follow
Christ's example?

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

When a little child grows up, he reaches the age of accountability and sees himself as a sinner like everyone else. At this time he is no longer part of the covenant because of [lost] innocense. After he believes,he is part of the coventant again. I'm not part of the tradition that believes infant baptism "seals" salvation. (SmokeEater)

This brings up MANY questions:

(1) If you think that infants are in a state of inocence and are not born already filthy sinners, why do you think they NEED to be in the Covenant during this innocence?

(2) Does one need salvation prior to being a sinner? Those who think infants are born in innocence are normally against infant baptism since baptism is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) and innocents are not sinners.

(3) Where does the Bible speak of exiting and re-entering covenants? The only exit to a covenant that I can see is breaking it, and isn't that a reason not to baptize infants? If you know beforehand that they WILL break the covenant, why put them in it? To condemn them, perhaps?

(4) Does one have to be rebaptized to re-enter the Covenant?

One must ask, "what was the practice of the early church?" (Jude)

Justin Martyr is the earlier writer to have written on this subject and this is what he said in chapter LXI of his First Apology:

"And for this [baptism] we have learned from the apostles this reason: Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father...the name of Jesus Christ...the name of the Holy Ghost..."

Thus, Martyr shows that our natural birth was without our consent, but our rebirth through baptism MUST be by our own choice and knowledge! What Justin Martyr delivers as the apostolic reason for baptism CANNOT be supplanted by those later heretics who denied the apostles' teaching.

[ May 14, 2003, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[Johnv]

How old was Jesus when he was baptized----an adult or an infant? Are we not to follow Christ's example?

Jesus was circumcised, and celebrated the Sabbath weekly. But we don't follow those examples.

Jesus also was not baptized until he was 30. Does that mean we can't get baptized if we're, say, 15?

Additionally, there are NT examples of whole households, including children, being baptized. So there does not appear to be a biblical ban on underaged baptizm.

Now, as a baptist, I subscribe to believers' baptizm as a matter of requirement for the Baptist. But it is not a requirement for the Christian.

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Now, as a baptist, I subscribe to believers' baptizm as a matter of requirement for the Baptist. But it is not a requirement for the Christian.

MAN! Jesus wasn't kidding when he talked about the blind leading the blind.

 

[Don]

Johnv wrote:

Additionally, there are NT examples of whole households, including children, being baptized.

Actually, John, no there aren't. There are multiple NT examples of whole households; but whether those households had children or not is not made clear at all. Whether those households had infants or not is not made clear at all.

It is an argument from silence that says the jailer's household contained infants and/or children. Can it be assumed? Sure it can; but I can also assume, based on that same lack of information, that his progeny were all 12 years or older.

 

[Smoky]

(1) If you think that infants are in a state of inocence and are not born already filthy sinners, why do you think they NEED to be in the Covenant during this innocence?

Because it identifies them as belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ.

(2) Does one need salvation prior to being a sinner? Those who think infants are born in innocence are normally against infant baptism since baptism is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) and innocents are not sinners.

Baptism is also the sign of the covenant, placed on those who belong to Christ. For adults, it is the sign that their sins have already been forgiven and they have received the Holy Spirit. Although infants are born with a sin nature, they are not required to believe until they uderstand.

(3) Where does the Bible speak of exiting and re-entering covenants? The only exit to a covenant that I can see is breaking it, and isn't that a reason not to baptize infants?

I think most of the Jews left it for the time being when the didn't believe in Jesus. And, since you can exit a covenant by breaking it, is that any reason to baptize an adult, knowing they may break it later? No, even if they sometimes break it, they often come back, and is that a reason to batize them over again?

If you know beforehand that they WILL break the covenant, why put them in it? To condemn them, perhaps?

Is that the reason people are baptized in your church, Sola, so that you can have the joy of seeing them fall away and be condemned? No, I don't believe it, but its the same suggestion you are making for people who baptize lilttle children!

(4) Does one have to be rebaptized to re-enter the Covenant?

Do you all re-baptize people who fall away in your church when they want to come back?

 

[Smoky]

How old was Jesus when he was baptized----an
adult or an infant? Are we not to follow
Christ's example?

The baptism of John, the baptism of Jesus, and Christian baptism are all different baptisms. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, especially for the Jews. Since Jesus needed no repentance, his baptism was different, probably an annointing for his ministry. Christian baptism provides the sign of the New Covenant for Christians in place of circumcision, and pictures the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as it was poured out at Pentecost and various other occasions in the book of Acts.

 

[A_Christian]

I believe that the baptism of Jesus marked the
beginning of His ministry (just as baptism should
mark the start of a Christian's ministry). What
is that ministry? The start of being an open
witness for the Lord. Baptism (immersion) is
a PUBLIC display of the inward indwelling of
the Holy Spirit.

When I was born----circumcision was the rule but
I count if for nothing.

 

[thessalonian]

All those who say that a baby should not be baptized, can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit? Is it possible?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
All those who say that a baby should not be baptized, can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit? Is it possible?

How would the Holy Spirit manifest itself in the infant?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now, as a baptist, I subscribe to believers' baptizm as a matter of requirement for the Baptist. But it is not a requirement for the Christian.

MAN! Jesus wasn't kidding when he talked about the blind leading the blind. </font>[/QUOTE]What do you mean by that? Are you saying that baptism is required for salvation? Baptism and communion, though highly important, are not requirements.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thessalonian:
All those who say that a baby should not be baptized, can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit? Is it possible?

How would the Holy Spirit manifest itself in the infant? </font>[/QUOTE]Any others care to comment?

 

[Smoky]

I'm going to have to correct myself on this one!!
Smoke Eater said:

So you can't say that there are adults in the covenant being taught "know the Lord" because at this time children lose their innocense and are no longer in the Covenant !

No, that's wrong Smoke Eater! This is only partially true. There are no adults in the New Covenant being taught because all their teaching came when they were children! The only reason they leave the covenant is if, at age of accountability, they reject the gospel. If they choose to believe at this time, they are no longer children being taught, but adult believers! So an individual never has to be out of a covenant relationship with God his entire life if brought up right!

 

[Yelsew]

What is the "age of accountability"?
Is it the same number of years for every child?
Is one permitted to smoke and drink once they reach that age of Accountability?
How is it determined?

 

[Smoky]

What is the "age of accountability"?
Is it the same number of years for every child?

It's the age a child comes to when he understands his responsibility to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. It would vary from child to child of course.

 

[Yelsew]

Wow, what a delemma, Should we raise or lower the voting age? what about the legal age?

Some do not reach the age of accountability you describe until they are on their deathbed!

Or is it based on the law of averages?

 

[Smoky]

All those who say that a baby should not be baptized, can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit? Is it possible?

As soon as I read this post, I thought of these verses.


Luke 1:41-44 (ESV)
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit , [42] and she ex claimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! [43] And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [44] For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

 

[Smoky]

Wow, what a delemma, Should we raise or lower the voting age? what about the legal age?

Balderdash Yelsew, it's not something determined by human beings, it's a spritual thing known only to God.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Smoke Eater:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />All those who say that a baby should not be baptized, can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit? Is it possible?

As soon as I read this post, I thought of these verses.


Luke 1:41-44 (ESV)
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit , [42] and she ex claimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! [43] And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [44] For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, and you are missing an earlier one:

Luke 1:15
"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

This was said to Elizabeth when the angel told her that she was going to have a son. This was fullfilled in the verse you cited. So yes, babies can have the Holy Spirit in them and it will show forth in their lives later. The Holy Spirit is not there just to put on a show but to change us. I do not think it a coincidence that John the Baptist recieved the Holy Spirit (i.e. was baptized) in his mother's womb. Spirit and water were present for him there. Can we prove that this did anything for John while he was an infant? No. We do not know much about him until he starts his baptismal ministery. But It is interesting that he was willing to be radical for the Lord. He understood and called for repentence, and when Jesus appeared to him he recognized him. Those who had the scriptures did not recognize him.

John 5:38-42
"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
"I do not receive glory from men;
but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

Blessings