INFANT BAPTISM IS SCRIPTURAL !

[Briguy]

Thess, just an observation. John the Baptist was a fulfillment of OT prophecy. He was unique, the situation was a one time thing. What I am getting at is that the Holy Spirit filling John is not an argument for a doctrinal position.

Time for a briguy example: If a watch maker makes a watch and hides a ruby on the inside of the watch, it has nothing to do with any other watches he makes or oversees being made. It just was simply his desire to put a ruby in that one watch.

I think the Holy Spirit indwells a person when they are saved, which in my view requires at least childlike faith/trust to happen. I will leave it at that. If you want more I can expound.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Thess, just an observation. John the Baptist was a fulfillment of OT prophecy. He was unique, the situation was a one time thing. What I am getting at is that the Holy Spirit filling John is not an argument for a doctrinal position.

Time for a briguy example: If a watch maker makes a watch and hides a ruby on the inside of the watch, it has nothing to do with any other watches he makes or oversees being made. It just was simply his desire to put a ruby in that one watch.

I think the Holy Spirit indwells a person when they are saved, which in my view requires at least childlike faith/trust to happen. I will leave it at that. If you want more I can expound.

In Christ,
Brian

Yes briguy I know. Like the other one time exceptions. Batpism isn't neccessary because the theif on the cross wasn't baptized. Find me another in the NT who was never baptized. Or is this a one time exception where a doctrinal position can be based on a one time incident. (Of course it is interesting that you cannot even prove that he was baptized conclusively). And then there is the age old episode that "proves" that reception of the Holy Spirit comes before baptism in Acts 10 with Cornelius and company. Another one time incident that is used to support a doctrinal position in Protestantism. Of course this is a theological variance for Catholicism that I will not go in to here. Perhaps the thing in Acts 19 is a one time example also, though I don't think so. Now I am wondering why the Ephesians in Acts 19 hadn't recieved the Holy Spirit until Paul came along. The ephesians after all were called disciples. They had apparently repented, having already recieved the baptism of John. There is no indication that Paul gives them a huge dissertaion on the Gospel like phillip apparently did with the Eunuch in Acts 8. So just repentence didn't give them the Holy Spirit. Paul says that the baptism of John also included belief in Jesus. Acts 19:4.
Why didn't they recieve the Holy spirit when they repented in John's baptism? Why not just after the resurrection or more likely on the day of pentecost?

Now, I didn't say that John's episode was specifically a baptism but it was a forshadowing of baptism. That is clear to me. Just like the OT stories of the Ark, the parting of the red sea, the curing of Naaman, the sprinkling of blood on the Jews, etc. etc.

Blessings

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

What do you mean by that? Are you saying that baptism is required for salvation? Baptism and communion, though highly important, are not requirements.

1 Peter 3:21, John 6:53.

 

[Yelsew]

1 Peter 3:20-22. They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now, not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has entered heaven and is at God's right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him.

John 6:51. I am the living bread which has come down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I shall give is my flesh, for the life of the world." 52. Then the Jews started arguing among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53. Jesus replied to them: In all truth I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise that person up on the last day. 55. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

John 3:14. as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.

SolaScriptura in 2003, I believe your point is that both baptism and Communion are requirments for Salvation. Is that correct? Then what do you do with Faith? Jesus says that the reason he must be lifted up is so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. Now I don't know about you, but Eternal life seem to fit the definition of Salvation like a glove, while Baptism and Eucharist both fit the definition of Works. Paul told the Ephesians, "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH, and not of yourselves it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest anyman should boast."

Looking ahead to the Judgment, Works are excluded because they are tested as if by fire, and only the good works coming through the fire, in the manner that Gold, Silver, and precious stones come through fire, while bad works are consumed by the fire in the manner that wood, hay, and stubble are consumed, leaving only ashes. Even so, the person who believes comes through as though from a fire. Then we see that Jesus was crucified on the cross to take away the sins of the world. So at the judgement, with Works dealt with, and With Sin dealt with, there is but one factor by which one will be judged, and that is faith! If you have it, you are saved from the lake of fire. If you do not have faith, you are cast into the lake of fire. So the truth is, that Baptism and Eucharist are not requirements for Eternal Life. It is FAITH ALONE that is required for Salvation!

[ May 15, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Then what do you do with Faith? (Yelsew)

Colossians 2:12 "Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." -- Those who are baptized placing their faith in the working of God rather than themselves (that is that they trust in what He does during baptism & what He did on the cross rather than what they do), He spiritually resurrects. All others, however, remain spiritually dead forever - the unbaptized, the baptized who had no faith in the operation of God, etc.

The next verse after, Col 2:13 says "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses," -- Where did he make these dead ones alive? According to verse 12, it was when they were baptized with faith in the operation of God - "baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working [operation, KJV] of God..." Colossians 2:12-13 - read it sometime!

It is FAITH ALONE that is required for Salvation! (Yelsew)

It must be, then, that men are saved without regeneration, and the dead are raised without being raised! See Colossians 2:12-13.

[ May 16, 2003, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[Yelsew]

It must be, then, that men are saved without regeneration

Well I guess I'll have to agree, since, "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH, and not of yourself it is a gift of God, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast."

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

[ May 16, 2003, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[Yelsew]

Guess what, we agree again, but the Holy Spirit is not going to be judged at the final judgment for how He cleans us up after we believe. The fact is only the faith of the individual matters. How one arrives at faith is not important!

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

How one arrives at faith is not important! (Yelsew)

What is that supposed to mean?????

BTW, this washing of rebirth mentioned above is baptism and although there is human action in it, it is called God's work not man's, for it is in it that He raises (Col 2:12-13) the spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How one arrives at faith is not important! (Yelsew)

What is that supposed to mean?????

BTW, this washing of rebirth mentioned above is baptism and although there is human action in it, it is called God's work not man's, for it is in it that He raises (Col 2:12-13) the spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive. </font>[/QUOTE]It means that How one arrives at faith is not important! The object of Faith must be God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Faith in God is the single important "possession" one must have when Judged by God.

Excuse me, Nicodemus, but the washing of rebirth is FAITH. Do you remember Jesus telling you in John chapter 3:1-21 about how rebirth is of the Spirit, and not the flesh. Do you remember when you asked Jesus how is it possible for an old man to re-enter the womb and be born again? Jesus told you that what is of the flesh is flesh, but what is of the spirit is spirit. Spirit cannot be washed with water (H2o). Spirit passes right through water without the water's knowing it was there. So how can water wash spirit? Well if spirit cannot be washed by water, how is it possible for there to be a washing of regeneration that uses water?

The Baptism that is effective for cleaning the spirit is Holy Spirit baptism. HS Baptism is not accomplished by man in any way, shape, or form. Holy Spirit baptism is the Holy Spirit interacting with and indwelling the human spirit, and altering the way man perceives the truth of God! It is an Out-with-the-old, and In-with-the-New kind of thinking that is an Act of God, but the man must believe in God, and therefore be willing to be so cleansed.

The spirit that believes the Gospel message is awakened and brought to life eternal. The spirit that does not believe is left in its dead state by God.

Nicodemus, Do you remember Jesus telling you in Verse 18 that He that believeth is not condemned, but he that believeth not, is condemned already?

Jesus did not tell you that you must be baptised in water in order to be saved! He did not tell you that you must partake of Communion to be saved, He did tell you that you must believe in Jesus, even on his name, to have eternal life.

Oh my God, Thank you for making salvation so plain and simple, so that feeble minded people like me can understand.

Do you get it SolaScriptura 2003? Let me know if you want to see it again, I never tire of telling people the truth!

 

[Briguy]

Great stuff Yelsew, Thank you

Thess. writes """Why didn't they recieve the Holy spirit when they repented in John's baptism? Why not just after the resurrection or more likely on the day of pentecost?"""

Thess, God knows the heart. They had not placed their trust in Christ at that point so they were not washed clean, so the Holy Spirit would not enter. When we trust in Christ, our Sin is removed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us. Jesus washes us clean first. Again God knows the heart, which you believe based on other catholic doctrine that allows entrance to heaven for those who follow his laws, whether they know it or not.

Hope that clarifies things a little. Have a great weekend!!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Yelsew]

Thanks BriGuy,

One more important distinction between Johns Baptism and other baptism. John's baptism was a call to national repentance in preparation of the arrival of the Messiah! Many repented and were baptised by John, but then again how many can one man baptise? Did any of the Sadducees or Pharasees get baptized by John? I don't think we know, but with the smugness they demonstrated toward Jesus, it was probably a taboo thing to do.