Insight into me

[Luke2427]

I grew up in a fundamentalist movement where very uneducated people screamed and hollered in condemnation of things- and they were very ignorant biblically, historically, etc... concerning those things.

I came to do the same. And when many of those "heroes" of mine started falling and letting me down, one day I sat down and said, "This stuff I have been led to believe by these people- does it really hold water?"

I went to the Scripture and these issues began to fail the test of bible scrutiny one right after the other- they fell like flies. I felt deceived.


I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

This comes off in my posting.

This is why I went to back to Bible college and then seminary.

I am being a bit vulnerable here because I am sharing information that you could use against me in future debates. But I figured we all actually spend a lot of time together, so it may kind of be like we ought to do this.

Even if my doing so turns and bites me on the butt, I don't think it is enough to bite hard, so I risked it.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I grew up in a fundamentalist movement where very uneducated people screamed and hollered in condemnation of things- and they were very ignorant biblically, historically, etc... concerning those things.

I came to do the same. And when many of those "heroes" of mine started falling and letting me down, one day I sat down and said, "This stuff I have been led to believe by these people- does it really hold water?"

I went to the Scripture and these issues began to fail the test of bible scrutiny one right after the other- they fell like flies. I felt deceived.


I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

This comes off in my posting.

This is why I went to back to Bible college and then seminary.

I am being a bit vulnerable here because I am sharing information that you could use against me in future debates. But I figured we all actually spend a lot of time together, so it may kind of be like we ought to do this.

Even if my doing so turns and bites me on the butt, I don't think it is enough to bite hard, so I risked it.

I don't respond in your threads because in spite of getting an education - something I wish I had much more of - you have retained the screaming and hollering in condemnation that was part of your upbringing.

I think you bring alot to any conversation that is valuable. But too often it's just hard to get to it with all the smug superiority you show at times.

I was taught by John R Rice that people can disagree because of my position, but i ought to make sure they don't disagree because of my disposition.

Now go ahead and tell me I ought to shut up because I don't read enough or have enough education. :tongue3:

 

[Luke2427]

I don't respond in your threads because in spite of getting an education - something I wish I had much more of - you have retained the screaming and hollering in condemnation that was part of your upbringing.

I think you bring alot to any conversation that is valuable. But too often it's just hard to get to it with all the smug superiority you show at times.

I was taught by John R Rice that people can disagree because of my position, but i ought to make sure they don't disagree because of my disposition.

Now go ahead and tell me I ought to shut up because I don't read enough or have enough education. :tongue3:

Yes, I appreciate your opinion.

I think you missed something in my post. I did not say that one should not shout and hit the pulpit. I said you better DARN WELL know what you are talking about before you do.

I think it is evil NOT TO. And I don't think the word "evil" is hyperbole.

The people who merit being the object of the most vehement pulpit pounding condemnation are not the one's who read other versions besides the King James, or let their women wear pants, or drink wine responsibly, etc...

They are the ones who PREACH such nonsense (ANYWHERE- including baptistboard) when they don't know what they are talking about- people who snub at education- people who have NO reason whatsoever to assume that they should speak on such matters but they are so INCURABLY arrogant that they do it ANYWAY.

These people SHOULD be at the receiving end of such vociferous condemnation.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I grew up in a fundamentalist movement where very uneducated people screamed and hollered in condemnation of things- and they were very ignorant biblically, historically, etc... concerning those things.

I came to do the same. And when many of those "heroes" of mine started falling and letting me down, one day I sat down and said, "This stuff I have been led to believe by these people- does it really hold water?"

I went to the Scripture and these issues began to fail the test of bible scrutiny one right after the other- they fell like flies. I felt deceived.


I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

This comes off in my posting.

This is why I went to back to Bible college and then seminary.

I am being a bit vulnerable here because I am sharing information that you could use against me in future debates. But I figured we all actually spend a lot of time together, so it may kind of be like we ought to do this.

Even if my doing so turns and bites me on the butt, I don't think it is enough to bite hard, so I risked it.

In some weird way...I have always thought it wise to sort-of comprehend the nature and the personality and the presumptive back-ground of the PARTICULAR individual you are trying to rejoinder/debate with/speak with...

I have a similar experience, but not exactly:

I was raised in an essentially "conservative" Southern Baptist Church...wherein I was saved and baptized...but, I REALLY became a dedicated and "sold-out" Christian while attending a KJV-only Independent, Fundamental, chicken-eating, sin-hating, pulpit-pounding Baptist Church (sometime in my early twenties)

Thus, for instance, while I don't believe that the KJV is "perfect" or "twice-inspired" or some provably false idiocy like that....I also sort of loathe the lame sort of "NIV"-preaching I was raised on...
Frankly...I would still argue today that (pound-for-pound) no other translation will EVER match it's specificity and beauty in fact accuracy (even if imperfect).

My experience was almost the converse of yours....I dis-liked what I thought to be the milque-toast" I thought I was raised in, and came to embrace the tenacity and dedication to truth-claims I saw in more fundamental Churches.

While I don't agree with ALL of the tenants of many fundamentalist Baptist Churches...I respect and admire their dedication to what they believe to be truth.

It's as though you were raised listening to Ron Paul...and came to embrace a little more Mitt Romney...
and I tired of the perfect hair (and amazing cuff-links) of Mitt Romney and came to respect the honesty and straight-forwardness of Ron Paul...

It comes full-circle though doesn't it?
:laugh::laugh:

 

[Crabtownboy]

I grew up in a fundamentalist movement where very uneducated people screamed and hollered in condemnation of things- and they were very ignorant biblically, historically, etc... concerning those things.

I came to do the same. And when many of those "heroes" of mine started falling and letting me down, one day I sat down and said, "This stuff I have been led to believe by these people- does it really hold water?"

I went to the Scripture and these issues began to fail the test of bible scrutiny one right after the other- they fell like flies. I felt deceived.


I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

This comes off in my posting.

This is why I went to back to Bible college and then seminary.

I am being a bit vulnerable here because I am sharing information that you could use against me in future debates. But I figured we all actually spend a lot of time together, so it may kind of be like we ought to do this.

Even if my doing so turns and bites me on the butt, I don't think it is enough to bite hard, so I risked it.

What I am going to say I say very gently and only as advice.

Education is good and we should never stop studying. We can continue by taking formal classes, reading and in discussions. We should read widely and all points of view.

Going to a Bible college and a seminary is good. I commend you for doing so. It gives an education, but, IMHO, a narrow education. Now is the time to branch out and take classes in other disciplines to broaden your education. Perhaps the best way is to take classes as a local community college. Don't worry about following a degree path. Take a wide range of courses and build on what you already know and broaden the base of your education.

There are excellent free online courses and lectures.

Learning is for life and should never stop as long as we can hold and read or listen.

And never forget every person we meet, regardless of educational background, status, race, creed, color, ethnicity ... every person can be our teacher in one way or another.

 

[Luke2427]

In some weird way...I have always thought it wise to sort-of comprehend the nature and the personality and the presumptive back-ground of the PARTICULAR individual you are trying to rejoinder/debate with/speak with...

I have a similar experience, but not exactly:

I was raised in an essentially "conservative" Southern Baptist Church...wherein I was saved and baptized...but, I REALLY became a dedicated and "sold-out" Christian while attending a KJV-only Independent, Fundamental, chicken-eating, sin-hating, pulpit-pounding Baptist Church (sometime in my early twenties)

Thus, for instance, while I don't believe that the KJV is "perfect" or "twice-inspired" or some provably false idiocy like that....I also sort of loathe the lame sort of "NIV"-preaching I was raised on...
Frankly...I would still argue today that (pound-for-pound) no other translation will EVER match it's specificity and beauty in fact accuracy (even if imperfect).

My experience was almost the converse of yours....I dis-liked what I thought to be the milque-toast" I thought I was raised in, and came to embrace the tenacity and dedication to truth-claims I saw in more fundamental Churches.

While I don't agree with ALL of the tenants of many fundamentalist Baptist Churches...I respect and admire their dedication to what they believe to be truth.

It's as though you were raised listening to Ron Paul...and came to embrace a little more Mitt Romney...
and I tired of the perfect hair (and amazing cuff-links) of Mitt Romney and came to respect the honesty and straight-forwardness of Ron Paul...

It comes full-circle though doesn't it?
:laugh::laugh:

Actually... I'm a Ron Paul man! :applause:

And my favorite version will probably always be the King James. I do not think any new English version can top it for several reasons like that the English language will never return to the quality it had in the 15th-16th centuries, the scholarship was unparalleled, etc...

Of course I do like numerous new versions and use them, too.

And NOTHING turns me off more than "milque-toast" Christianity.

:thumbsup:

 

[idonthavetimeforthis]

I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

I agree with this conclusion.

Our authority is found in God's Word - which we'd better know in context before we go spouting off personal preferences & self-righteous standards.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Yes, I appreciate your opinion.

I think you missed something in my post. I did not say that one should not shout and hit the pulpit. I said you better DARN WELL know what you are talking about before you do.

I think it is evil NOT TO. And I don't think the word "evil" is hyperbole.

The people who merit being the object of the most vehement pulpit pounding condemnation are not the one's who read other versions besides the King James, or let their women wear pants, or drink wine responsibly, etc...

They are the ones who PREACH such nonsense (ANYWHERE- including baptistboard) when they don't know what they are talking about- people who snub at education- people who have NO reason whatsoever to assume that they should speak on such matters but they are so INCURABLY arrogant that they do it ANYWAY.

These people SHOULD be at the receiving end of such vociferous condemnation.

Actually I wasn't saying anything about hitting a pulpit and yelling. I was talking about your attitude here on this board.

I fully understood your point. You just lose listeners who probably agree with you by your seemingly incurable arrogance.

Thanks for the insight into your character.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Actually... I'm a Ron Paul man! :applause:

And my favorite version will probably always be the King James. I do not think any new English version can top it for several reasons like that the English language will never return to the quality it had in the 15th-16th centuries, the scholarship was unparalleled, etc...

Of course I do like numerous new versions and use them, too.

And NOTHING turns me off more than "milque-toast" Christianity.

:thumbsup:

1.) If it weren't Biblically untrue....
I would think that Ron Paul (even if I don't dig his foreign policy) was the Messiah

2.) Unfortunately, the English language is de-volving in it's capacity for specificity and explanatory power, and because of this, I maintain that, un-fortunately...the KJV still will (and always will IMO) maintain the word for word explanatory power never again to be emulated or copied...
In a perfect universe...a better translation COULD be possible, but the English language is losing it's abilities. In a better world the English language would not be so over-simplified, that is something Orwell warned us of: a simplified language he called "Newspeak"...subtleties of meaning become lost, and as a result words can become relativised, and subsequently...truth itself becomes relativised...This is so prominent today it's ridiculous. Orwell was a prophet.

3.) As far as "milque-toast" Christianity...I agree...but we have to be SOOOO careful....There's a fine-line between being un-movably dedicated to truth and being a mere Inquisitor...
The tee-totalling threads are teachable moments for us:
We, one the one hand, need to respect and defend the "faith as delivered unto us"...but at the same time, we must distinguish between that, and mere traditions of men...
It's a tough row to hoe sometimes.
Jud 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Here's a difficult dichotomy we have to be cognizant of...
Paul's respect for the "right" traditions...and the error and problems associated with blind adherence to tradition:

Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Embedded within 2 Thess 2:15.. is the key perhaps...It must be by "Word" (probably from an apostle only) or "Epistle" (which we have access to today)...

We MUST respect our elders' traditions...as being perhaps the wise-counsel of yesteryear. I will NOT lambast the preaching of Billy Sunday, as his preaching was incredibly relevant for his era...all the yack about "demon-drink" and what-not...

But, Billy Sunday did not always exegete the Scriptures perfectly in his preaching either:

God decidedly used him in his era and thus we must respect the tradition he has handed down to us...but, he is not the perfect Biblical teaching about all things relevant to that issue...

We look to the "Epistles" as Paul said for our guidance...

We heed Sunday's warnings, and thus, we do not despise the traditions of our fathers....
But we test all Universal Truths by the measure of the Epistles................................

And...when someone asks me to preach again...I'll do so, until then, sorry about subjecting the audience to my interminable musings

Well....I'm sorta sorry, but not really.

 

[Winman]

Actually I wasn't saying anything about hitting a pulpit and yelling. I was talking about your attitude here on this board.

I fully understood your point. You just lose listeners who probably agree with you by your seemingly incurable arrogance.

Thanks for the insight into your character.

Luke likes folks who tell it straight. OK.

 

[quantumfaith]

I grew up in a fundamentalist movement where very uneducated people screamed and hollered in condemnation of things- and they were very ignorant biblically, historically, etc... concerning those things.

I came to do the same. And when many of those "heroes" of mine started falling and letting me down, one day I sat down and said, "This stuff I have been led to believe by these people- does it really hold water?"

I went to the Scripture and these issues began to fail the test of bible scrutiny one right after the other- they fell like flies. I felt deceived.


I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

This comes off in my posting.

This is why I went to back to Bible college and then seminary.

I am being a bit vulnerable here because I am sharing information that you could use against me in future debates. But I figured we all actually spend a lot of time together, so it may kind of be like we ought to do this.

Even if my doing so turns and bites me on the butt, I don't think it is enough to bite hard, so I risked it.

Speaking for myself..I would never use ones cathartic vulnerabilities as weapons in a debate. Such would not be kosher. I do appreciate insight into you.

In return, I was a military brat, growing up all over these United States and two foreign countries. Always attended SBC oriented churches, on rare occasions Base Chapel services. I attended for two years Baptist Bible Institute, now known as Florida Baptist Theological College. One of my life's great mentors was Dr. J.W. Lee, Prof of OT. I exchanged the study of "chronicles" for the study of calculus and have taught college for 26 years. Looking back, I probably have greater opportunity to directly impact lives as a teacher as much if not more than I would have as a pastor or staff member.

 

[quantumfaith]

What I am going to say I say very gently and only as advice.

Education is good and we should never stop studying. We can continue by taking formal classes, reading and in discussions. We should read widely and all points of view.

Going to a Bible college and a seminary is good. I commend you for doing so. It gives an education, but, IMHO, a narrow education. Now is the time to branch out and take classes in other disciplines to broaden your education. Perhaps the best way is to take classes as a local community college. Don't worry about following a degree path. Take a wide range of courses and build on what you already know and broaden the base of your education.

There are excellent free online courses and lectures.

Learning is for life and should never stop as long as we can hold and read or listen.

And never forget every person we meet, regardless of educational background, status, race, creed, color, ethnicity ... every person can be our teacher in one way or another.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[12strings]

I grew up in a fundamentalist movement where very uneducated people screamed and hollered in condemnation of things- and they were very ignorant biblically, historically, etc... concerning those things.

I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

I suppose the problem is that those fundamentalists you refer to, and your debate opponents on this board, DO think they are well-informed on the subjects they rant about...Just as you do. And then there's the question of how informed and educated must one be before they are "allowed" to beat the pulpit in condemnation.

 

[Winman]

I suppose the problem is that those fundamentalists you refer to, and your debate opponents on this board, DO think they are well-informed on the subjects they rant about...Just as you do. And then there's the question of how informed and educated must one be before they are "allowed" to beat the pulpit in condemnation.

Let's face it, Luke is talking about me. In another thread he named me specifically several times. There are several others that annoy him, but I am the one he dislikes the most.

Luke's problem is insecurity. He wants everybody to think he is smart and well educated. Truth is, Luke IS very smart and well educated, but he doesn't have a lick of common sense. One thing Luke will learn someday is that institutions of learning don't always teach the truth. One of the best places to get your mind totally messed up is college. Someday he is going to realize he has been fed much error.

God gave us the scriptures and told us to study. If a person diligently studies and prays they can come to a good and accurate understanding of the scriptures.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Luke likes folks who tell it straight. OK.



Luke, even these guys think you're an idiot!

In some ways, Winman, you're the other side of the luke coin.

Besides that, you shouldn't show family portraits on line. :tongue3:

 

[Winman]

In some ways, Winman, you're the other side of the luke coin.

Besides that, you shouldn't show family portraits on line. :tongue3:

I admit, that was rather cruel, but I know where Luke keeps his goat tied up.

Truth is, I am from North Carolina, my grandfather was a farmer. But he was a very smart man who owned several businesses, his brother was a doctor. I am proud to be a redneck and a hillbilly.

You have to like who you are, that is what Luke needs to learn. It doesn't matter where you were born, you can go as far as you apply yourself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A
And NOTHING turns me off more than "milque-toast" Christianity.

:thumbsup:

Then why in heavens name are you a Southern Baptist???

 

[Luke2427]

Actually I wasn't saying anything about hitting a pulpit and yelling. I was talking about your attitude here on this board.

Which is the equivalent of hitting the pulpit in that venue.

I fully understood your point. You just lose listeners who probably agree with you by your seemingly incurable arrogance.

I think in this topsy turvy age and religious culture there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what equates to arrogance.

 

[Luke2427]

I suppose the problem is that those fundamentalists you refer to, and your debate opponents on this board, DO think they are well-informed on the subjects they rant about...Just as you do. And then there's the question of how informed and educated must one be before they are "allowed" to beat the pulpit in condemnation.

Yes, but when a guy shows that he does not know the history of an issue and does not respect innumerable learned men both in this age and in the ages leading up to this one who wrestled with that issue-

-when he simply proof texts and so OBVIOUSLY takes texts out of their immediate contexts and their book context and out of the context of the whole of Scripture

-when he basically parrots the tenets which have been ingrained in him from his isolated culture in which he was raised no MATTER that they have no biblical basis

this man is not hard to identify. He should not be defended and he CERTAINLY should not be championed.

But more often than not on here people turn the guy who slams this arrogance into the villain.

That is the age we live in- at least in this post-modern influenced Christian culture.

The only person who is evil is the one who says ANYBODY is evil.

 

[Winman]

Which is the equivalent of hitting the pulpit in that venue.


I think in this topsy turvy age and religious culture there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what equates to arrogance.

Tom, still think that picture I posted was inappropriate?