Insincere gospel offer Part 2

[Hark]

In scripture, we preach (announce), not offer the gospel. We announce that whoever believes has eternal life. An offer of the gospel instead suggests salvation has not yet happened to them, and it's up to them to react, saving themselves by that work.

...."An offer of the gospel instead suggests salvation has not yet happened to them".

That sounds kind of deep, but can it be proven by scripture? How do you apply this then?

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So even though they heard the gospel, it still not has happened to them, because they did not believe in Jesus Christ.

Now for "and it's up to them to react, saving themselves by that work"

Not really, because no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws them per John 6:44 Is it the sinful nature for why He has to draw us or drag us to the Son? Then you have the Father reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him per Matthew 11:25-27. Does John 3:18-21 confirms that our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God as well? I'd say so.

So your first part has nothing to do with the second part as if that is what is meant by the offer of the gospel. The offer is being given but yet not every one believes the gospel, but those who do believe, our believing in Him is a work of God.

 

[1689Dave]

...."An offer of the gospel instead suggests salvation has not yet happened to them".

That sounds kind of deep, but can it be proven by scripture? How do you apply this then?

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So even though they heard the gospel, it still not has happened to them, because they did not believe in Jesus Christ.

Now for "and it's up to them to react, saving themselves by that work"

Not really, because no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws them per John 6:44 Is it the sinful nature for why He has to draw us or drag us to the Son? Then you have the Father reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him per Matthew 11:25-27. Does John 3:18-21 confirms that our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God as well? I'd say so.

So your first part has nothing to do with the second part as if that is what is meant by the offer of the gospel. The offer is being given but yet not every one believes the gospel, but those who do believe, our believing in Him is a work of God.

Offer = people accept and save themselves = false gospel. Announce eternal life for all who believe = salvation freely given.

 

[Alan Gross]

Thank you for sharing, but...

Do you know that there is a fiery calamity coming on the earth as described by Peter in 2 Peter 3:3-15 ? It ties in with the one third of the earth being burned up as described in Revelation 8:7. Jesus also warned about this calamity in Luke 17:26-37 where Christians are not being persecuted in the great tribulation but living as we are now in being able to buy & sell & work the fields. The times of us being raptured is the time we are living in now for why He is warning believers to be ready or else.

So when I apply Luke 12:40-49. Jesus is talking about the fire that is coming on the earth for why those saints for not being ready as found abiding in His words ( John 15:1-8 *note verse 6 ) are cut off to be with the unbelievers to face that fire coming on a third of the earth & for the "survivors" to face the coming great tribulation as a result when the New Word Order sets up the mark of the beast system for the rest of the two thirds part of the world to buy & sell in order to survive after that calamity.

Nope. Nothing to come but Jesus' Second Coming.

The End of Time.

No second Accursed Gospel of a "second chance", for any soul.

When Jesus Personally COMES TO TRY TO TWIST LOST JEWS' ARMS, TO PLEASE BE SAVED, BEFORE THE ALARM CLOCK WINDS DOWN?

Forget it.

No hope once Jesus Returns.

 

[Hark]

Offer = people accept and save themselves = false gospel. Announce eternal life for all who believe = salvation freely given.

I reckon if you are going to make offer a dirty word, in favor of announce, but couldn't the same judgment be applied to the people having to accept the announcement thus be seen as saving themselves as well?

 

[Hark]

Nope. Nothing to come but Jesus' Second Coming.

The End of Time.

No second Accursed Gospel of a "second chance", for any soul.

When Jesus Personally COMES TO TRY TO TWIST LOST JEWS' ARMS, TO PLEASE BE SAVED, BEFORE THE ALARM CLOCK WINDS DOWN?

Forget it.

No hope once Jesus Returns.

Skepticism can be used as a tool but don't hide behind it.

It is with His help that we use scripture that proves or reproves teachings. If you do not know at this time, since we prophesy in part & know in art, then let His love say, I do not know the answer yet but I am relying on Him to help me see the truth about this issue or He shall help me defend it by showing how what you are applying scripture is not meant for that topic. James 1:5-6

As it is, you are unable to apply the scripture I have referenced towards supporting your point of view. rather than correcting mine in rightly dividing the word of truth with Him. That is the only way we can progress in this discussion as iron sharpens iron by His grace & by His help; not by deflecting because scripture I have referenced, does not align with what you are saying or that you do not understand how it is to be applied or not applied... yet..

 

[Revmitchell]

In another thread about to be closed, opponents of the reformed position say the offer of salvation is insincere because the person is unable to respond in faith, having not been chosen by God.

These same folks acknowledge that God knows who will believe and who will reject the gospel.

The question is... Is the person able to respond differently than what God has already foreseen?

The answer is clearly “no”.

So, if the person is unable to respond to the gospel in faith in both cases, (whether not being chosen by God or God already knowing they will reject the gospel) doesn’t that make the offer of salvation insincere in both cases?

The question is narrow. Is the offer insincere in both cases? Can it be sincere in one case but insincere in the other? Why or why not?

No need to post volumes of positions already well known by everyone.

peace to you

Im sorry but the two are not equal examples. Further, knowing they will reject the gospel in no way makes the offer insincere. God sincerely wants them to know Him whether they reject Him or not. Since He sincerely wants them to know Him and He has enabled them to believe in Him by delivering the gospel to them then it is clear His offer is sincere even though He knows they will reject Him.

In the reformed position God does not sincerely want them to know Him and in fact stand directly in the way of any possibility of them knowing Him. That makes it insincere.

 

[AustinC]

In the reformed position God does not sincerely want them to know Him and in fact stand directly in the way of any possibility of them knowing Him. That makes it insincere.

This is a false claim regarding the Reformed position, though I do not doubt for one second it is your poor understanding of the Reformed position.

Every person God has chosen to redeem and thus know Him, does in fact know God.
God does not stand in the way of the unredeemed as an obstacle to their salvation. The unredeemed stand as their own obstacle to God. Their sin and their pride in self keep them from God. Even though God has provided a common grace to all humanity, the sinner refuses to acknowledge God as Lord and replaces God's headship with his own headship.
If God did not choose to break you of your pride and self-rule, you would never have bowed your soul to God's authority over your life. You would have chosen your self over God 100% of the time.

Your accusation of God should bring you to repentance, mitchell.

 

[1689Dave]

I reckon if you are going to make offer a dirty word, in favor of announce, but couldn't the same judgment be applied to the people having to accept the announcement thus be seen as saving themselves as well?

Preach = Announce in Greek. The "offer" makes people their own savior in a false legalistic gospel scheme. "Offer" turns the gospel into law and grace into works.

 

[canadyjd]

Im sorry but the two are not equal examples. Further, knowing they will reject the gospel in no way makes the offer insincere. God sincerely wants them to know Him whether they reject Him or not. Since He sincerely wants them to know Him and He has enabled them to believe in Him by delivering the gospel to them then it is clear His offer is sincere even though He knows they will reject Him.

In the reformed position God does not sincerely want them to know Him and in fact stand directly in the way of any possibility of them knowing Him. That makes it insincere.

Thanks for responding in a civil way. I disagree with a couple of things you have stated.

First, the accusation the offer of salvation is insincere (which I do not believe) must be applied to both views if applied to the reformed view.

In both cases the person is unable to respond favorably to the gospel.

Secondly, your accusation that the reformed position makes God “stand directly in the way of any possibly of knowing Him” is simply untrue, and in fact, the opposite is true.

God revealed Himself in creation, in the Mosaic Law, and in Jesus Christ and His gospel. All are sincere offers of salvation and all are rejected.

God, being rich in mercy and love, doesn’t leave those He has chosen in that condition, but directly intervenes in their lives to bring the to salvation.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Thanks for responding in a civil way. I disagree with a couple of things you have stated.

First, the accusation the offer of salvation is insincere (which I do not believe) must be applied to both views if applied to the reformed view.

In both cases the person is unable to respond favorably to the gospel.

Secondly, your accusation that the reformed position makes God “stand directly in the way of any possibly of knowing Him” is simply untrue, and in fact, the opposite is true.

God revealed Himself in creation, in the Mosaic Law, and in Jesus Christ and His gospel. All are sincere offers of salvation and all are rejected.

God, being rich in mercy and love, doesn’t leave those He has chosen in that condition, but directly intervenes in their lives to bring the to salvation.

peace to you

Have you noticed they never offer the gospel. But preach it instead. Offering makes the person their own savior by works. Preaching instead tells believers at the moment God has saved them.

 

[canadyjd]

Have you noticed they never offer the gospel. But preach it instead. Offering makes the person their own savior by works. Preaching instead tells believers at the moment God has saved them.

I haven’t ever thought of it like that. Is there any biblical support for the phrase “offer of salvation” referring to the gospel.

I’ll look after church

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

I haven’t ever thought of it like that. Is there any biblical support for the phrase “offer of salvation” referring to the gospel.

I’ll look after church

peace to you

First, You need to believe (be saved according to Jesus) before you would ever consider taking up an offer........... But They preached (Greek = announced, proclaimed) the gospel according to Jesus' command.

In Revelation Jesus freely offers believers spiritual benefits. Some try to turn this into works salvation, but again, only believers, those already saved, would accept. Total Depravity would rule out the unsaved through their inability to regard spiritual themes.

 

[Hark]

Preach = Announce in Greek. The "offer" makes people their own savior in a false legalistic gospel scheme. "Offer" turns the gospel into law and grace into works.

Not when the offer entails Jesus Christ as the Savior so I fail to see how anyone accepting the offer see themselves as saving themselves.

Have you come across anyone that believe that because it was an offer, they saved themselves?

I know that many believe in free will and can attribute to that belief that they chose to save themselves due to free will but I have never come across any of them assigning "the offer" in that way as proof that they saved themselves.

Scripture disproves free will readily enough since no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him ( John 6:44 )

It is the Father that can hide the truth of His Son from the prudent & the wise & He is the One that reveals His Son to even babes per Matthew 11:25-27

John 3:18-21 is proof that our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God.

John 1:12-13 proves it is not by the will of men for how any believer become sons of God.

When sinners are a slave to sin & yet seek God, they need God the father to drag them to the Son to reveal His Son to them so they can believe & be saved. Also note that faith is a fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22-23 & they are from Jesus Christ Philippians 1:11 as Jesus is the One that began a good work in us ( Philippians 1:6 as we are given to Him by God the father to save ( John 6:37-40 )

If those of free will claim that offer as why they see themselves as saving themselves, I'd still point them to those scripture as you should too, but "offer" by itself is not evil until they applied it as heresy.

One can apply as giving the offer of a free gift of eternal life from God to those that believe; hence not all receive that gift because they believe not the offer nor the announcement to receive that free gift of eternal life from God thru Jesus Christ.,

I can understand the reluctance to use "offer" but I do not believe it is on the same level of "sacrament" for why that should not be used, being of Catholic origin as a term used for a system of works to obtain salvation within the Catholic Church in according to their Catechism, whether or not Catholics agree with that as being written when it is written as meaning such.

 

[1689Dave]

Not when the offer entails Jesus Christ as the Savior so I fail to see how anyone accepting the offer see themselves as saving themselves.

Have you come across anyone that believe that because it was an offer, they saved themselves?

I know that many believe in free will and can attribute to that belief that they chose to save themselves due to free will but I have never come across any of them assigning "the offer" in that way as proof that they saved themselves.

Scripture disproves free will readily enough since no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him ( John 6:44 )

It is the Father that can hide the truth of His Son from the prudent & the wise & He is the One that reveals His Son to even babes per Matthew 11:25-27

John 3:18-21 is proof that our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God.

John 1:12-13 proves it is not by the will of men for how any believer become sons of God.

When sinners are a slave to sin & yet seek God, they need God the father to drag them to the Son to reveal His Son to them so they can believe & be saved. Also note that faith is a fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22-23 & they are from Jesus Christ Philippians 1:11 as Jesus is the One that began a good work in us ( Philippians 1:6 as we are given to Him by God the father to save ( John 6:37-40 )

If those of free will claim that offer as why they see themselves as saving themselves, I'd still point them to those scripture as you should too, but "offer" by itself is not evil until they applied it as heresy.

One can apply as giving the offer of a free gift of eternal life from God to those that believe; hence not all receive that gift because they believe not the offer nor the announcement to receive that free gift of eternal life from God thru Jesus Christ.,

I can understand the reluctance to use "offer" but I do not believe it is on the same level of "sacrament" for why that should not be used, being of Catholic origin as a term used for a system of works to obtain salvation within the Catholic Church in according to their Catechism, whether or not Catholics agree with that as being written when it is written as meaning such.

Jesus said Preach the gospel. Only law can be offered and that changes grace into works where people become their own savior, which of course is a false gospel.

 

[Hark]

Jesus said Preach the gospel.

I agree with that statement in and of itself, but I do not see the relation of offer as to the law as you seem to made the relation below in your quote.

Only law can be offered and that changes grace into works where people become their own savior, which of course is a false gospel.

I agree that it is a false gospel if believers think they are the saviors by saving themselves by believing in Him, but limiting the term offer to only that false belief is not valid nor sound.

 

[1689Dave]

I agree with that statement in and of itself, but I do not see the relation of offer as to the law as you seem to made the relation below in your quote.



I agree that it is a false gospel if believers think they are the saviors by saving themselves by believing in Him, but limiting the term offer to only that false belief is not valid nor sound.

Grace saves people before they can understand and respond. An offer assumes people are not sinful and have free will which scripture nowhere assumes.

 

[Alan Gross]

Skepticism can be used as a tool but don't hide behind it.

It is with His help that we use scripture that proves or reproves teachings. If you do not know at this time, since we prophesy in part & know in art, then let His love say, I do not know the answer yet but I am relying on Him to help me see the truth about this issue or He shall help me defend it by showing how what you are applying scripture is not meant for that topic. James 1:5-6

As it is, you are unable to apply the scripture I have referenced towards supporting your point of view. rather than correcting mine in rightly dividing the word of truth with Him. That is the only way we can progress in this discussion as iron sharpens iron by His grace & by His help; not by deflecting because scripture I have referenced, does not align with what you are saying or that you do not understand how it is to be applied or not applied... yet..

Here are SIXTY-SIX !
NEW TESTAMENT VERSES
Which TEACH:
THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST
( The PAROUSIA of Jesus Christ )
and THE END of THE EARTH.

9.0.0 > NT Intro iv: SIXTY-SIX NEW TESTAMENT Verses Teach The SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST & THE END of TIME.

Now, an individual who rightly divides the Word will never find a 'tribulation period', or rapture, or anything having to do with any word including the letters, "mill".

These scriptures TEACH DOCTRINE and are in the didactic gospels and church letters, i.e., not from apocalyptic writing which requires special handling to have a clue.

Good men will find The Second Coming of Jesus as TAUGHT by these Bible verses.

They are as plain as the scriptures referencing lost soul, which you reject.

Well, I reject your rejection.

You act like everyone is saved here, there, or everywhere, as if there are different events that will take place involving several other gospels.

I don't see it.

Show me how you add to and take away from these specific 66 verses, anywhere, to come up with an invented, 'mill', anything and I'll reject that as man-inspired (Satan) flesh talk, also.

 

[Hark]

Grace saves people before they can understand and respond.

Since believing in Him is a work as well as a gift of God & those who do not believe are condemned already, I have to disagree. We are saved by grace through faith. If we do not believe or have faith, we are not saved yet by grace until He has enable us to do so.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

An offer assumes people are not sinful and have free will which scripture nowhere assumes.

It seems to me that you are assuming offer to mean only that. Do you have anyone in this forum that believes in that heresy & agrees with you as to what offer means? Maybe you can refer to a website that proves heretics see offer only in that way?

I can see you have a problem with it. I agree with you that we do not save ourselves when our believing in Him is a work & gift of God, but grace does not save people before they can understand & respond when we are saved by grace through faith.

 

[Revmitchell]

Thanks for responding in a civil way. I disagree with a couple of things you have stated.

First, the accusation the offer of salvation is insincere (which I do not believe) must be applied to both views if applied to the reformed view.

In both cases the person is unable to respond favorably to the gospel.

In no case is anyone unable to respond. If that is what you are basing any of this on we likely have nothing to discuss. We will never agree on that.

Secondly, your accusation that the reformed position makes God “stand directly in the way of any possibly of knowing Him” is simply untrue, and in fact, the opposite is true.

God revealed Himself in creation, in the Mosaic Law, and in Jesus Christ and His gospel. All are sincere offers of salvation and all are rejected.

God, being rich in mercy and love, doesn’t leave those He has chosen in that condition, but directly intervenes in their lives to bring the to salvation.

peace to you

Which has nothing to do with those God knows will not get saved. Which is the topic here correct?

 

[Hark]

Here are SIXTY-SIX !
NEW TESTAMENT VERSES
Which TEACH:
THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST
( The PAROUSIA of Jesus Christ )
and THE END of THE EARTH.

9.0.0 > NT Intro iv: SIXTY-SIX NEW TESTAMENT Verses Teach The SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST & THE END of TIME.

Now, an individual who rightly divides the Word will never find a 'tribulation period', or rapture, or anything having to do with any word including the letters, "mill".

These scriptures TEACH DOCTRINE and are in the didactic gospels and church letters, i.e., not from apocalyptic writing which requires special handling to have a clue.

Good men will find The Second Coming of Jesus as TAUGHT by these Bible verses.

They are as plain as the scriptures referencing lost soul, which you reject.

Well, I reject your rejection.

You act like everyone is saved here, there, or everywhere, as if there are different events that will take place involving several other gospels.

I don't see it.

Show me how you add to and take away from these specific 66 verses, anywhere, to come up with an invented, 'mill', anything and I'll reject that as man-inspired (Satan) flesh talk, also.

You did not address the scripture shown to you.

You did not rightly divide them to correct me if I was doing it wrong.

Therefore we are at an impasse. You are not hearing me nor Him by ignoring what is written in scripture

We cannot progress in any discussion until we actually rightly divide the word of truth with Him.

It is obvious that we agree to disagree. I leave you to God, brother.