I have a question about something posted on page 2, but it goes off topic; so I started a new thread called When you know the words...
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Instrumental Worship - is it Biblical?
- Thread starter IfbReformer
- Start date
Most of our music is from "The Baptist Hymnal". We are a traditional Southern Baptist Church.
The Youth have praise and worship services and sometimes they lead the worship service with their songs. I am not sure if you would call them CCM.
Why not? I am not the music director so I don't choose the music for services. I only choose the music that I play for preludes, offertories, postludes, and altar prayer times.
T
Travelsong
Guest
If the heart is right then the outward demeanor naturally follows. Anyone can go through the motions and pay lip service. Appearances can be deceiving to men, but not to God who judges what? The heart!
IfbReformer
New Member
But the attack on playing instruments could easily be turned against singing - it is produced by the flesh as well, the same lungs that would breath air into a horn or flute are the same lungs that expel air to sing. They are both done with the flesh.
You say we have a command to sing - we don't disagree there. But does this command to sing forbid the playing of instruments to praise the Lord - Can we only praise the Lord with our singing and not with our instruments as well?
I know that you dismiss the Harps in revelation(as does Aaron) as allegorical, and even if you accept them then you must do everything around them as well. Thats just bad logic. Examples in the scripture don't work that way. If you see an series of things being done, and you choose to do one thing you do not have to do everything around it, it just might not be practical.
But see for you, examples are really no different than commands, and least how I think you see things. I and many other Christians see a distinct difference between a command and a example - examples permit, commands require.
But a general command to sing praise to God, does not mean we cannot praise God with other instruments as well.
Again there is not detailed order of service given in the New Testament. Yes the scriptures say let things be done decently and in order, but they do not give us the order of service. What they mean is things should be done it whatever order we choose in an orderly manner, not a chaotic manner.
No one here can show a list of commands Paul or any other Apostle gives detailing how we are to conduct our services.
We can see details on some things, such as how to conduct communion, but it does not tell how often to conduct communion.
We see a very detailed set of instructions as to how to select a Pastor or Deacon, but we are not told how long the Pastor should preach or when he should preach.
Keep in mind, you may be able to piece an example here or there together to form some ideas, but there is no express set of commands which tell us these things.
One other thing to think about, I see nowhere in the New Testament this idea of formal worship verses informal. There was a distiction like this in the Old Testament between what intstruments could be played in the temple and which ones could only be played outside the temple.
The passages you use that have commands to sing have nothing around them to suggest they are instructions for formal worship - they are general instructions for all times.
IFBReformer
IFBReformer
I know what you're saying here, and generally agree, but that is not a true statement.
My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.
Many people have 'their hearts in the right place' and truly want to worship and serve God, but because of ignorance they are not serving Him in the proper manner—women in the ministry for instance. Is there any question that the Corinthian women who prayed and prophesied casting away their symbols of submission were doing so out of their zeal for Christ? I have no doubt that many women in the ministry are spurred by a desire to do great things for God, but they are out of order. God is not being served.
Bob Griffin calls himself a recovering Pharisee. No doubt his heart was "in the right place," but he said he has learned since then that he wasn't really serving God.
Don't you have some experiences where you thought you were doing great things for God, but learned better?
I sure do.
God is not only to be worshipped in spirit, but also in truth.
Your statement that if one's heart is right then his demeanor automatically lines up comes awfully close to saying that true worship is whatever I feel like it is.
That doesn't mean we can't teach and expect the right motions. We still expect folks to sit still, be quiet and pay attention while the preaching is going (except on TBN). We expect people to Bow their heads and close their eyes while someone is leading in prayer. We have a host of reasonable expectations of the other worshippers, all of which are outward motions.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to press you for some evidence for this little maxim. It don't see this hermeneutic applied anywhere by Christ or the Apostles. Are you sure this isn't just some arbitrary assumption you're making? Awfully shakey ground, yet your entire thesis hinges upon it.
T
Travelsong
Guest
I know what you're saying here, and generally agree, but that is not a true statement.
My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.
Many people have 'their hearts in the right place' and truly want to worship and serve God, but because of ignorance they are not serving Him in the proper manner—women in the ministry for instance. Is there any question that the Corinthian women who prayed and prophesied casting away their symbols of submission were doing so out of their zeal for Christ? I have no doubt that many women in the ministry are spurred by a desire to do great things for God, but they are out of order. God is not being served.</font>[/QUOTE]You have just demonstrated how all sin operates. The heart which is not right with God, sins. I note that you and I have agreed in the past there is no area of a man's life which can be free of sin's taint. Whether one is aware of sin is irrelevant to it's existence.
Yes, I learn that I am in sin whenever I fail to act with the same love as Jesus.
The purest expression of worsip is complete submission to God. It won't be realized in this body.
No doubt most expectations you describe as reasonable regarding conduct are Scriptural.
However, last week at church I heard a violin, cello and piano trio play Amazing Grace without vocals and it moved me to consider how deeply God's grace truly runs. I know from first hand experience that instruments are fine for worship.
IfbReformer
New Member
I'm afraid I'm going to have to press you for some evidence for this little maxim. It don't see this hermeneutic applied anywhere by Christ or the Apostles. Are you sure this isn't just some arbitrary assumption you're making? Awfully shakey ground, yet your entire thesis hinges upon it. </font>[/QUOTE]Sure here is an example from Christ himself:
Jesus gave an example here of David's actions, to show their understanding of the Sabbath command was not right. The example shows a "permitted action" underneath a command(the requirement to keep the Sabbath).
I want to clear up something here as well, I am not saying an example can never be a command - because there are times in the scripture where and example is given in the context of a command.
For instance, Paul told us to follow his example the pattern which he set forth.
But does that mean because Paul was a tent maker that we all should be tent makers?
Does it mean that we all must be Preachers as he was?
When he said to follow his example, he was speaking of morality of his life, the Godly actions that he took. He was not saying we need to dress in his clothes and become tent makers.
So in the sense that Paul uses of the morality of his life, the example becomes a command.
But lets take another example to distinquish here, we see many places in the scripture where believers met on the first day of the week to worship. But we never see a command to worship on the first day of the week.
Are we(as a church) required(by the example of New Testament believers) to worship on the first day of the week? Could we not worship on Saturday? Could we not worship on Tuesday?
I just was talking with my Pastor about this on Sunday and he was telling me of a Missionary in another country were travel restrictions were placed on Sundays. So they changed their church service to Saturday. It was perfectly Biblically acceptable for them to do so.
IFBReformer
Dale McNamee
New Member
Hi All!
At my church,we use sacred classical music (instrumental,vocal,& choral),along with traditional hymns,and contemporary worship music.
Why is instrumental(non-vocal)music in church such a controversy?
God has given the church such a rich body of music to worship Him with over the past 1,500 years and we should not quibble over such insignificant things such a "vocal vs. non-vocal" music!
In Christ,
Dale
At my church,we use sacred classical music (instrumental,vocal,& choral),along with traditional hymns,and contemporary worship music.
Why is instrumental(non-vocal)music in church such a controversy?
God has given the church such a rich body of music to worship Him with over the past 1,500 years and we should not quibble over such insignificant things such a "vocal vs. non-vocal" music!
In Christ,
Dale
I will have mercy and not sacrifice is a universal, non-optional principle. Mercy a weightier matter of the Law (Matt. 23:23). It is not optional.
It would have been wrong for Ahimelech to deny David and his men the shewbread. So, no. This is NOT an example of permission.
But this is not the kind of example you were originally talking about. You were talking of symbols, e.g. beasts in worship and such.
Show us where anyone appealed to symbols to justify the literal use of such.
IfbReformer
New Member
First off I already told you I do not believe the harps are only symbols and not real - we will agree to disagree there.
But there is something in your statement here that hits at the core of our disagreement:
"to justify the literal use of such"
Now yes we agree, that whether we eat or drink and in all that we do we should do it to the glory of God.
So this is my approach to how I do my job, how I take care of my family, what things I buy, how I spend my relaxing time and yes how I worship.
The only "justification" in this sense for something I include in my worship is, does it conflict with a Biblical command?
Some would argue, as the PBs and Church of Christ do, that Paul's exhortation to Sing makes intruments off limits for worship. We will agree to disagree there, I believe it is a general command to worship, you believe these passages are specific worship manuels the same as the instructions God gave Noah for Building the ark.
The problem here that is usually ignored again is that none of these passages were talking to Christians about formal worship - these commands would apply everywhere and anywhere, not just in the assembly. But most PBs I have read try and distinguish between formal worship and home worship - there is no such distinction in the New Testament.
So since worshiping God with my voice through singing, or using my hands to play a keyboard, or using my same air passages to blow air into a flute - does not violate a command of scripture I am right to do it.
God could be worshiped with instruments before the Mosaic law, during the law, after the law
and in heaven as well.
I don't need a New Testament example to of believers in churches playing instruments to justify there use -that is the crux of the argument - at least with the PBs and Church of Christ.
The absense of an example does not forbid a practice, only a command can forbid a practice.
IFBReformer
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
When I get to heaven, I would love to hear David play some of the Psalms on a harp to worship Almighty God.
What do you mean by "real harps"? Do you think the city is made of "real" gold, or the gates of "real" pearl?
What evidence do you have other than your presuppositions that the harps are literal as we know them?
Again, just another arbitrary assumption on your part. We are to prove all things. We are to prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. You, my friend, haven't even begun.
T
Travelsong
Guest
I believe progress in proving the manner of worship which includes the use of instruments as acceptable has been made.
There is just as much reason to make melody with an instrument as there is with the voice. Melody is intrinsically tied to joy, to virtue. When you set God's truth to melody, His truth is reaffirmed, and in the exact same manner whether sung alone, accompanied with instruments, or entirely instrumental (when the words are known and the teaching understood in all cases).
There is just as much reason to make melody with an instrument as there is with the voice. Melody is intrinsically tied to joy, to virtue. When you set God's truth to melody, His truth is reaffirmed, and in the exact same manner whether sung alone, accompanied with instruments, or entirely instrumental (when the words are known and the teaching understood in all cases).
IfbReformer
New Member
Yes Aaron, the city is made of real gold and the gates are made of real pearl. What reason can you give us to doubt this?
Yes the harps are real as as well until you can show evidence they are not real. I don't have to prove something the scriptures say plainly.
If you want to interpret the whole book of Revelation symbolically you and I and many other Christians will take a very different view of many things in the scriptures.
I agree we are to prove all things, in fact that is the theme for my website.
The question is not are we to prove all things,
the question is how are we to prove all things?
Must we have a Biblical example for each and every action we take in life? So if no one used computers in the Bible neither should we?
We don't have examples of people driving cars in the Bible - so maybe we should not do that?
We don't see churches taking votes to do this or that in the Testament, so maybe we should'nt do that either?
How we prove something is by taking that something, whatever it may be, and seeing if it conflicts with a New Testament Biblical command or Biblical principle - if it does not, then it is fully acceptable to use.
For instance, Paul forbids a women to teach or usurp authority over a man in the church(the assembly). So a women cannot be a Pastor, or a men's Sunday School teacher. It is forbiden by clear command.
Does the playing of instruments to worship God violate a command or principle he has given in the New Testament? You say the command to sing makes it a violation to play, I and other Christians disagree with you - we are to worship God with all our being and you and the primitive baptists, and church of Christs have failed to show a distinction between how we worship God in the assembly, verses outside the assembly in private.
The scriptures you quote about singing and making melody are general worship commands, not a specific worship manual for formal worship(since we see no such thing as formal worship in the New Testament).
On that subject, is it wrong for a church to have formal worship and different arrangements of formal worship? Not at all, if they as a church agree to, then so be it. But it is not required either.
Let everything that has breath, use that breath to praise the Lord, whether it be through the singing of a song, or the playing the flute - praise the Lord.
IFBReformer
We're told that eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But you're saying your mind has conceived these things. Worse than that, that God has prepared earthly things for our use in Heaven, the very idea of which is antithetical to all the teaching of the Scriptures.
You don't get to cop out on this. There would be no question that they were real if we were presented with historical narrative in these passages, but we're not. This is apocalyptic literature, the chief characteristic of which is the extensive use of symbolism. If anything, the allegorical view enjoys a defacto standing here, not the literal one.
And the Spirit is plainly speaking to us through symbols.
I want to interpret the book as it was intended to be interpreted. You're saying the harps are literal because it's easy for you to conceive in your mind literal harps. You obviously believe there is symoblism used in Revelation. Are only those things you can't easily conceive symbolic?
You said so yourself. You said examples permit.
What we have in this case is a technological device that was readily available, yet shunned for use in worship in the first centuries of Christianity.
This is a significant fact that you are avoiding in your "proof".
This has nothing to do with the discussion, but not only is voting in the New Testament, a convincing case for it can be made.
Says who? This is just another way of saying that if the Scriptures are silent, then it's permissible. That's not proof, that's presumption. We are to prove ALL THINGS, which means you have to prove that something is acceptable, and the old cop-out "I don't see nuthin' aginst it in the Bible" isn't a proof.
I do? Where did I say that? I know who argued that with you, and it wasn't I.
I didn't quote Eph. 5 or Col. 3. They have nothing to do with worship. They have to do with our day-to-day conduct as Christians. Again, I know who argued that with you, and it wasn't I.
But here's where you're at. You cannot demonstrate from the Scriptures that God wills the use of instruments in Christian worship. You keep falling back on the old they're-not-prohibited chestnut.
So really, this argument about instruments isn't about what God wills, but what you will.
IfbReformer
New Member
3 observations here:
1. The passage you quote is refering to Old Testament Saints and those who crucified Christ but now Paul says God has "revealed them" unto us.
2. Revelation was written long after the Pauline Epistles and while Paul was given some glimpses of heaven and prophecy, he was not given the full view that John was - progressive revelation my friend.
3. So once again, you have a preconceived notion that God would not have us use any earthly things in heaven? Where do you get this?
IFBReformer
IfbReformer
New Member
No cop out here - just a literal view of Revelation. John saw many wonderful things in heaven and they were all very real, while some literal things he saw may have represented other literal things(so they are symbolic) this does not make everything in the book symbolic. The literal view IS THE DEFACTO method of interpreting the entire Bible. While we recognize some literal things, may be symbolic of other literal things, we do not come in assuming this as you do.
Some time when I get more time, I will start a thread in the Theology area on interpretation of Revelation.
I have never said examples bind us but that they permit us to do something. They are an encouragement to us in our actions but they are not binding.
As I said, only if an example is given in the context of a command, then we are bound by it - that we are to follow this or that example.
For instance we are commanded to follow Christ's example of his life, and Paul exhorted us to follow his life's example. But this was refering to the Godliness of their lives. It did not mean we have to become a carpenter, because Christ was one. It does not mean we have to become a tent maker because Paul was one. It does not mean we have to go without a wife as Paul did, as Paul made abundantly clear.
The fact that there is no mention of instruments in the early church is not siqnificant proof of anything. If I were to go by church history(outside the Bible) as a way of telling what was right or wrong I might as well become a Catholic.
The Bible is our authority, not extrabiblical church history, and if the New Testament does not condemn a practice either by direct command or by principle then it is perfectly acceptable.
Those who teach we can do nothing without a New Testament command or example are teaching the commands of men for the commands of God.
We are to prove, or test everything we do by the scriptures- Does this action conflict with God's Word? Is there a principle of the scriptures this action would violate? These are the questions we must ask. To add to this that not only must we check to see if it violates the New Testament, but that it must also have an example to be done is doing just that, adding to the Scriptures laws God did not impose on us in the New Testament Church.
IFBReformer
The passage I quoted is a universal, perpetual truth. Paul used it to emphasize the fact that spiritual things cannot be apprehended by the carnal mind—in any age.
These are only revealed to those who have ears to hear.
Conceive in your mind, if you can, a glorified body. What is that body like?
So, the gates of the city will really be made of oyster byproducts? The city itself and its streets will be made of a physical substance composed of atoms that have a nuclei of 79 protons and 118 neutrons, 79 electrons orbiting in 6 layers, and will melt @ 1,948 degrees Fahrenheit?
That's ridiculous. Our rewared is incorruptible, but gold isn't. Though it's very resistant, gold will oxidize (rust). It will burn.
The eye has seen pearl and gold. The natural mind has conceived of these things for millennia.
These simply are not the things that are laid up for us. You are making the error of the Judaizers, who believed the shadows of things to come, the temple, priesthood and offerings, were the things themselves.
Preconceived? It's only stated a hundred times in the New Testament. You should read it some time.
Note: Correction for above post.
"a nuclei" should simply read "nuclei".
The principle that is being considered by those who shun instruments in worship is one of simplicity and spirituality. God seeks true worshippers who will worship Him in truth and spirit. They make an excellent case, one that is well thought out, devout, and well-supported by the Scriptures. Their warnings have been found to be prophetic.
To support your case, you appeal to obviously symbolic representations insisting that they are literal, yet offer no supporting evidence for your premises other than to say your approach is correct because you say it is.
When all is said and done, it is not God's will in the matter that you are seeking, it's your own.
"a nuclei" should simply read "nuclei".
The Bible is indeed our authority. But you come to it with a host of unfounded presuppositions, the primary being the one you repeat over and over, that whatever is not forbidden is permitted.
The principle that is being considered by those who shun instruments in worship is one of simplicity and spirituality. God seeks true worshippers who will worship Him in truth and spirit. They make an excellent case, one that is well thought out, devout, and well-supported by the Scriptures. Their warnings have been found to be prophetic.
To support your case, you appeal to obviously symbolic representations insisting that they are literal, yet offer no supporting evidence for your premises other than to say your approach is correct because you say it is.
When all is said and done, it is not God's will in the matter that you are seeking, it's your own.