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Instrumental Worship - is it Biblical?

IfbReformer

New Member
Originally posted by Aaron:
So, the gates of the city will really be made of oyster byproducts? The city itself and its streets will be made of a physical substance composed of atoms that have a nuclei of 79 protons and 118 neutrons, 79 electrons orbiting in 6 layers, and will melt @ 1,948 degrees Fahrenheit?

That's ridiculous. Our rewared is incorruptible, but gold isn't. Though it's very resistant, gold will oxidize (rust). It will burn.

The eye has seen pearl and gold. The natural mind has conceived of these things for millennia.

These simply are not the things that are laid up for us. You are making the error of the Judaizers, who believed the shadows of things to come, the temple, priesthood and offerings, were the things themselves.
I am really looking forward to a future discussion of Revelation and I will leave this issue, as far as interpretation of Revelation at this:

God can do anything, God can make Gold that does not deteriorate, God can make Pearl without Oysters just like he made wine without grapes and made bread and fish from nothing for the crowds to eat.

You simply are limiting God because you refuse to accept Revelation at face value. Like I said, I look forward to a fuller discussion with you on this subject with others on this board.

In fact I think I will start a thread on this in the theology forum and let everybody have a crack at it.

IFBReformer
 

mioque

New Member
Originally I considered taking Judith as a screenname.
Would have been mighty usefull in this case.

Aaron, James Reed! You lay one finger on my tambourine and I'll cut your head of!!
saint.gif


Ofcourse this only makes sense to those who have read the Apocrypha. :cool:
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by IfbReformer:
I am really looking forward to a future discussion of Revelation and I will leave this issue, as far as interpretation of Revelation at this:

God can do anything, God can make Gold that does not deteriorate, God can make Pearl without Oysters just like he made wine without grapes and made bread and fish from nothing for the crowds to eat.
No need to discuss it further. You've already answered my question. Incorruptible "pearl" or "gold" is not literal gold or pearl as we know them. They're something else never seen by man, nor conceived in his heart.

Christ did not make wine from nothing. He turned water to wine. It was wine. Literal and natural wine just as we know wine. First, we're presented with historical narrative in that account. Second, had the wine been left long enough it would have spoiled just like literal, natural wine as we know it does.

You simply are limiting God because you refuse to accept Revelation at face value.
Au contraire! I do accept Revelation at face value—symbolism, just as I take at face value the statement that Christ is "the lamb of God." Obvious metaphor there. You are the one who is trying to make Revelation something that it's not.

Like I said, I look forward to a fuller discussion with you on this subject with others on this board.
No need for me to get involved in another one. Once you start the thread there will be others to set you straight about Revelation. At the very least, you will see why the main support of your argument for instruments in Christian worship is inadequate.
 
T

Travelsong

Guest
Whether or not there are literal harpists playing in worship before God is irrelevant to the discussion. The most important point to note is that the concept of instrumental worship as it is presented through imagery in Revelation is a holy and acceptable one.
 

superdave

New Member
Both in the imagery in Revelation (Which I believe to be an attempt at a literal description of what we will see, even if the Queen's English can't properly describe it) and the Psalms demonstrate Instrumental music used in Worship. Don't see how it could be construed as not Biblical.
 

bmerr

New Member
Originally posted by Scarlett O.:
Here's the whole point....

No, the New Testament does not command for the church to use instruments...but neither does it forbid it nor claim that musical instruments are invalid in promoting worship.
bmerr here. I understand your point of view, but your reasoning, if applied to other aspects of worship, would be easily seen as poor.

For example, what if someone wanted to add steak and potatos to the Lord's Supper, and justified this idea with the statement that "the NT doesn't command steak and potatos, but it doesn't forbid it, either."

Surely you can see wherre this kind of reasoning could lead. It seems to me that to simply base our worship and service on what God has commanded, rather than on what God has not specifically prohibited, would be the far safer way to go.

If you feel that instrumental music in your church is a detriment or a hindrance, then don't have it.
We must remember that worship is not to be centered on what WE want, but on what God has commanded. One of the saddest times in the history of Israel was during the period of the judges, when "...there was no king in Israel: [and] every man did that which was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25).

My church feels that is the piano plays an important role in promoting worship and putting people into a spirit of worship. So we will keep our piano because it encourages people to worship.
A desire to do the will of the Father should be the motivation for worship, not a piano.

If we are going to exclude pianos from the sanctuary and from the encouraging of worship because the are not commanded in the New Testament, then we are also going to have to do away with pulpits, sound systems, choir robes, choirs, choir directors, youth directors, AWANA, stain glassed windows, hymnals, pews, church signs, church websites, weekly bulletins, collection plates, .......

.....well, you get the idea.
Scarlett, there is a great need for instruction in the difference between "additions", and "expedients" in worship. You mentioned several things, and so, I will address some of them.

Pulpits were the first you mentioned. We need to ask the question, "What role does a pulpit play in worship?" Is it something we do? Is a pulpit an action? No. A pulpit is a tall desk where a preacher can rest his Bible, or sermon notes for ready reference while he is preaching. A pulpit is an aide to the carrying out of the command to preach/teach.

Sound systems were next. Again, let's ask, "What does the sound system do?" It merely amplifies the voice of the preacher, so he can be heard more clearly. Again, it is an aide to carrying out the command to preach/teach.

Third, let's lump together choirs, choir robes, and choir directors. What part do these play in worship?

Right from the start, we can look at verses dealing with singing in the NT, and see what is said about it.

Eph 5:19 says, "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord".

Similarly, col 3:16 says, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

In both of these verses, we have what I've been told is called a "reflexive reciprocal command". It basically means I'm singing to you, as you sing to me, and so on for the whole congregation.

Often, in a choral situation, the choir sings, while the rest of the congregation listens. This is not what God has commanded, and is therefore, not His will.

Choirs are not authorized in the NT, and are not acceptable for use in worship of Jehovah. That said, if we do away with choirs, we effectively do away with their robes and directors, as well.

Skipping down your list to hymnals, or song books, we can ask our question, "What does the song book do in worship?" Have you ever tried to song book? Is it possible to sing and hymnal? Of course not. The song book is once again, merely and aide to carrying out the command to sing.

I won't belabor the point any further. I think you can see what I'm talking about. Suffice it to say that when we introduce the instrument to the worship, we add another kind of music to that which God has commanded. There are many styles of music, but only two kinds.

The whole collective of Baptist churches today bear absolutely no PHYSICAL resemblance to the early church. So should we get rid of all of the above because of that?
EXACTLY!!! There is a great need for people to abandon the creed books, church manuals, catechisms, etc of denominationalism and return to the Bible (NT) as our sole authority in religion. If it's not commanded, then God didn't want it. If it's not worship in spirit and in truth, it's worship in vain.

What's important is that the whole of the body of Christ, whether they be Baptist or whatever, should bear an EXACT resemblance to the early church in its heart for Jesus and its revering of God the Father.
This attitude will be manifested by the conforming of the people to the word and will of God.

Worship from a righteous person's heart is acceptable to God with or without instruments.
A righteous person will not use the instrument in worship. He will do as God commands.

And optional does not mean forbidden nor unacceptable.
That is correct, provided it is an option, and not an addition.

In Christ,

bmerr
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
Do you actually sing to one another, or do you sing just like the rest of the churches (basically, into the air), only without intruments and choirs to guide you?
As I said elsewhere, if you take Eph. that way, then song books are "another form of music", and the music is not really in your heart, but you are just reciting it mechanically, and it is thus a hindrance. With amplification devices; the majority of the sound is coming from a vibrating speaker, not the vocal chord, which are drowned out. It is teachinically, another type of INSTRUMENT.
The Churh of Christ has just made up it's own mind what is "expedient" and what is an "addition", and bends the criterion at will to justify the traditions that they are already familiar with (which they overlooked), and exclude only what others do that they do not do. It is just a silly, carnal issue to raise, and itself is not "expedient".
 

Bro Tony

New Member
It has been stated in this debate that a musical instrument cant bring praise or glory to God. This of course is in direct conflict with Psalm 150 (and yes Aaron I have read every page and post). The Scripture says to praise God with the "sound of the trumpet", the lute, timbrel, stringed instruments and flute, and (heaven for bid) loud clashing cymbals. Seems pretty clear as to the direction of worship and what God desires/allows when His people worship Him. Of course as has already been stated true worship begins in the heart any thing else with or without instruments is not worship.

In the NT Paul says in Ephesians 5:19-"speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord"

Clearly here the main intent is to the Lord as Paul says, but he also instructs us to do this to one another. His first portion has to do with psalms, if psalms are to be used in the NT church they must be understood in the context and method they were given which takes us back to Psalm 150---pretty clear Paul had no problem with use of psalms in the NT church and clearly they would have been expressed as the psalms were always expressed. Not with voice only but with the musical instruments.

Bro Tony
 

Brother J.B.

New Member
Isaiah 17:7-8 at that DAY shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either groves, or the images

I believe the day came when christ said in John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I believe we worship god in a temple not made with hands nor do we worship him with our hands but with the spirit making melody in our heart. not our stoney hearts that he said he would remove but with that fleshy heart which he gave us with the circumcision of the heart by his spirit.
Christ said in Luke 17:20 The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 said its with in us. so then we must sing with the spirit within us making melody in our heart not with our hands that is flesh but in our heart with the spirit.
This is the only way i understand to worship god. I believe alot of natural things in the old taught spiritual things in the new.
in the old they burned incense, i believe this is a type and shadow of the saints prayers going up to heaven. in Rev. 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. but i don't believe we need to burn incense when we pray nor do i believe we need to play musical instruments when we sing but the spirit is the only thing we need to provide all things. we need not build an alter but in the spirit we come to the alter of christ. we need not a high priest but christ is our high priest. I am a simple man with out great learning. I can not argue or debate and prove anything. I walk by faith looking to god for all understanding not from flesh and blood but from god. I will let man have what ever he wants but i want not what i want. But desire god to reveal to me his will and help me deny my self. .........brother jeremy
 
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