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Intermediate Hell?
- Thread starter Kathy
- Start date
Kathy:
Apparently Hades (or Sheol)contains both Abraham's Bosom (or Paradise) and Gehenna. This is the situation described in this parable you've cited. Unfortunately, both Hades and Gehenna are translated as "Hell" in the translation you've used, which creates confusion. I think the rich man is in Gehenna, or the "lake of fire". That he is "in torment" strongly suggests this. As far as I understand this, he is where he will be for eternity. The only deceased people in an "intermediate place" are those righteous dead in Abraham's Bosom who will go on, at the Final Judgement, to Heaven.
Hope this is helpful.
Apparently Hades (or Sheol)contains both Abraham's Bosom (or Paradise) and Gehenna. This is the situation described in this parable you've cited. Unfortunately, both Hades and Gehenna are translated as "Hell" in the translation you've used, which creates confusion. I think the rich man is in Gehenna, or the "lake of fire". That he is "in torment" strongly suggests this. As far as I understand this, he is where he will be for eternity. The only deceased people in an "intermediate place" are those righteous dead in Abraham's Bosom who will go on, at the Final Judgement, to Heaven.
Hope this is helpful.
Kathy, Please Dont Take This Parable Too Literal..,
My First Note Would Be To Say That This Was A Jewish Myth That Jesus Was Using To Embelish His Own Viewpoint Concerning The Present Condition of The Jews and The Surrounding Gentile Nations Surrounding Them (Gentiles). Sheol or Hell as Described by all old Testement writers was referring to an unseen state.an attitude of positive or negative.. add the grave or pit and all kinds of people are going somewheres.....when a person dies we go to a holding "place". christians call it soul sleep. no interraction. held in check by god until the judgement. no heat no vision no taste no interraction...your dead (kinda)
Think about this.. There was 500 years between malaci to jesus when the jews were dispersed to Babylon,Egypt and judea. A Lot Of myths were added to the jewish forefathers folklore. A Major Reason Why Jesus Was So Mad Was The Addition of these myths to the people by the current Religious leaders. especially The Pharisees.
A Lot Of Escatology Ideas From Babylon Religion (Especially The Zorastrians). The Egyptians..remember The Jews Were There Previously In Their Far Past. and The Greek Influence of Philosophy. all Created a Very
and heretical situation to discuss religion...
If You Were Interested , Go Run Some Searches on The Web. It Will Open Your Eyes To A Lot
of study material. It Will Also Debunk A Lot Of Christian Myths about our present day thinking.
Happy Hunting
Me2
My First Note Would Be To Say That This Was A Jewish Myth That Jesus Was Using To Embelish His Own Viewpoint Concerning The Present Condition of The Jews and The Surrounding Gentile Nations Surrounding Them (Gentiles). Sheol or Hell as Described by all old Testement writers was referring to an unseen state.an attitude of positive or negative.. add the grave or pit and all kinds of people are going somewheres.....when a person dies we go to a holding "place". christians call it soul sleep. no interraction. held in check by god until the judgement. no heat no vision no taste no interraction...your dead (kinda)
Think about this.. There was 500 years between malaci to jesus when the jews were dispersed to Babylon,Egypt and judea. A Lot Of myths were added to the jewish forefathers folklore. A Major Reason Why Jesus Was So Mad Was The Addition of these myths to the people by the current Religious leaders. especially The Pharisees.
A Lot Of Escatology Ideas From Babylon Religion (Especially The Zorastrians). The Egyptians..remember The Jews Were There Previously In Their Far Past. and The Greek Influence of Philosophy. all Created a Very
and heretical situation to discuss religion...If You Were Interested , Go Run Some Searches on The Web. It Will Open Your Eyes To A Lot
of study material. It Will Also Debunk A Lot Of Christian Myths about our present day thinking.
Happy Hunting
Me2
According to the Book of Revelation both Hell and Death will be cast into the Lake of Fire so it is obvious there is a difference between Hell and the Lake of Fire. There is a holding place for lost people.
Most Christians do not believe in soul sleep.
Neither is it taught in the Bible. The reason people talk about soul sleep is because the Bible mentions something about the Dead knows nothing and death is called sleep. The Bible teaches that upon death a person either goes to Paradise or Hell. Paul makes it very clear that the soul of the dead goes to be with the Lord.
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is called a parable but in reality it was not because Jesus never used a name when using parables. Being God Jesus knew that this was a story of reality and used it to warn people about Hell. Jesus spoke himself more about Hell than anyone else.
Most Christians do not believe in soul sleep.
Neither is it taught in the Bible. The reason people talk about soul sleep is because the Bible mentions something about the Dead knows nothing and death is called sleep. The Bible teaches that upon death a person either goes to Paradise or Hell. Paul makes it very clear that the soul of the dead goes to be with the Lord.
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is called a parable but in reality it was not because Jesus never used a name when using parables. Being God Jesus knew that this was a story of reality and used it to warn people about Hell. Jesus spoke himself more about Hell than anyone else.
I Always Thought That Judgement Came Before Punishment...
Guess Whos In Hell Right Now?......Nobody
Judgement Day Hasnt Come Yet.
The Parable Is A Myth. What Kind Of Water Soothes Unqenchable Fire. Is There Inter-reaction
and Communication Between Heaven And Hell? I Dont Think So...
Everyone Who Has Died (and Hasnt Been Resurrected) Is Still Asleep. Their Bodies Have Long Desentegrated. Their Souls In Suspended Time...awaiting judgement. reward and or punishment.. were all going to be judged at the same time.
Yes, I Can Believe the dead are All In The Same "Place". Believers and non Believers. But Their Not Aware of that. Gods is holding them for judgement. one moment your alive and the next moment (of awareness) judgement. then punishment....
Soul Sleep, Whatevere you want to call it.
How about: 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that jesus died and rose again, even so them also which Sleep in Jesus will God Bring with Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For This We say unto you by the word of the Lord, That we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are sleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall Rise First.
asleep, dead, waiting........
The Story Was Only A Myth.. There isnt any Place Called the Bosom Of Abraham Nor Is There any Place Called Paradise...
Me2
Guess Whos In Hell Right Now?......Nobody
Judgement Day Hasnt Come Yet.
The Parable Is A Myth. What Kind Of Water Soothes Unqenchable Fire. Is There Inter-reaction
and Communication Between Heaven And Hell? I Dont Think So...
Everyone Who Has Died (and Hasnt Been Resurrected) Is Still Asleep. Their Bodies Have Long Desentegrated. Their Souls In Suspended Time...awaiting judgement. reward and or punishment.. were all going to be judged at the same time.
Yes, I Can Believe the dead are All In The Same "Place". Believers and non Believers. But Their Not Aware of that. Gods is holding them for judgement. one moment your alive and the next moment (of awareness) judgement. then punishment....
Soul Sleep, Whatevere you want to call it.
How about: 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that jesus died and rose again, even so them also which Sleep in Jesus will God Bring with Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For This We say unto you by the word of the Lord, That we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are sleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall Rise First.
asleep, dead, waiting........
The Story Was Only A Myth.. There isnt any Place Called the Bosom Of Abraham Nor Is There any Place Called Paradise...
Me2
I Just Noticed Something Along The Same Line Of Thinking
Luke 16:11-13
Jesus Uses A Name Called Mammon
Was This A God of Riches... A Heathen Myth and jesus is using his name in a parable. is jesus giving this myth credit or approval. verifying his existence...no jesus is just using the language of the day to present a parable. How About beelzebub..another myth God of filth..
Sometimes Jesus Just Talked Like Common Folk To Get His Point across..
Me2
Luke 16:11-13
Jesus Uses A Name Called Mammon
Was This A God of Riches... A Heathen Myth and jesus is using his name in a parable. is jesus giving this myth credit or approval. verifying his existence...no jesus is just using the language of the day to present a parable. How About beelzebub..another myth God of filth..
Sometimes Jesus Just Talked Like Common Folk To Get His Point across..
Me2
Since time to a dead person is nothing... The exact moment we close our eyes in death we open our eyes in paradise!... This day shalt thou be with me in paradise!... What immediate hell?... Brother Glen
The story of the rich man and Lazarus was not a parable, it was a true story. Whenever Jesus gave a parable, He said it was a parable. If He didn't say it was a parable, it was a true story.
Paradise was a part of Hell until the Crucifixion and Jesus descended into Hell. That is why the rich man could see Lazarus but there was a great gulf between them. The rich man was in torment, Lazarus was in Paradise. When Jesus died, He went to Hell and conquered Death and Hell and took Paradise to Heaven. (Eph. 4:9,10) That is why David (who was redeemed through the Promise) could say, if I make my bed in hell, thou art there. (Psalm 139:8) And that is why Jesus told the thief today you will be with Me in Paradise. Jesus knew He was to go to hell and conquer death and hell and that He would be taking Paradise. That is also why Jesus says in Rev. 1:18 that He has the keys of hell and of death.
Edited to say: Brother Glen: Intermediate hell. Did you mean immediate? LOL!
[ April 16, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]
Paradise was a part of Hell until the Crucifixion and Jesus descended into Hell. That is why the rich man could see Lazarus but there was a great gulf between them. The rich man was in torment, Lazarus was in Paradise. When Jesus died, He went to Hell and conquered Death and Hell and took Paradise to Heaven. (Eph. 4:9,10) That is why David (who was redeemed through the Promise) could say, if I make my bed in hell, thou art there. (Psalm 139:8) And that is why Jesus told the thief today you will be with Me in Paradise. Jesus knew He was to go to hell and conquer death and hell and that He would be taking Paradise. That is also why Jesus says in Rev. 1:18 that He has the keys of hell and of death.
Edited to say: Brother Glen: Intermediate hell. Did you mean immediate? LOL!
[ April 16, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]
Ive been reading a lot of parables just lately and jesus didnt say "Hey everybody this is a parable" . Jesus Must Have Ripped Thru 4 or 5 parables in a row without even a breather or telling anyone. "o.k. guys Ive been telling you parables, now this one is true...literally".
judgement before punishment. announcement of wrongdoing before retribution...
I Can See Death and Waking Up Before The Great White Throne for Judgement. Without even being aware of the ommission of "Time" spent for everybody else to die. does everyone get judged at the same time or is there 500 billion appearances of innocence or guilt.
we die, we wait, we are judged, This was Just A Parable
judgement before punishment. announcement of wrongdoing before retribution...
I Can See Death and Waking Up Before The Great White Throne for Judgement. Without even being aware of the ommission of "Time" spent for everybody else to die. does everyone get judged at the same time or is there 500 billion appearances of innocence or guilt.
we die, we wait, we are judged, This was Just A Parable
What translation are you reading, Friend?
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Hear another parable:
Now learn a parable of the fig tree:
...he spake by a parable:
KJV
You can find all kinds of cults and erroneous beliefs and teachings on the Internet. Also a lot of distortion of the Scriptures. Also study material for "itching ears."
Everybody has an opinion and everybody claims to be an expert and everybody has a web page.
Wise people don't count on Internet gleanings for interpretation of God's Word. They compare Scripture with Scripture.
[ April 17, 2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]
so exactly what was the immediate explanation to the people jesus was talking to ?..could jesus be scaring everyone with this little story about the future.?
this is the first time ive seen anything written about the afterlife and nobody was shocked or no big reaction. could this be current folklore. something everybody in the area heard before.
and let me say that there is history written from other peoples prespective during that period of time.even jewish writers that were not included in the bible. i remind you once again that 500 years of jewish history passed.
with your current thinking anyone dying can expect spending a period of torment and punishment in hell before knowing just what they did to deserve it.....before judgement.
this is the first time ive seen anything written about the afterlife and nobody was shocked or no big reaction. could this be current folklore. something everybody in the area heard before.
and let me say that there is history written from other peoples prespective during that period of time.even jewish writers that were not included in the bible. i remind you once again that 500 years of jewish history passed.
with your current thinking anyone dying can expect spending a period of torment and punishment in hell before knowing just what they did to deserve it.....before judgement.
Jesus was answering the hypocritical Pharisees in this passage in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus.
The Old Testament is full of references to afterlife. That is why there was no big shock or big reaction.
How long have you been a Baptist?
Re: the verse in your profile:
Matthew 10:16: "...Wise as serpents, harmless as doves." KJV
[ April 17, 2002, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]
ive been a Baptist for over 25 years. My profile only includes things for you to critisize. I Know about a lot of closed minded people who are not willing to think past what other people tell them.. the bible has many possibilities of conclusion of thought. and thank god we need him to tell us what he is trying to express. folklore was included into the peoples minds during jesus time and they didnt try to differentiate what people told them and reality too.. notice all they wanted to know was whats going to happen tomorrow jesus !...notice also that what we Think will happen tomorrow changes the way we think and communicate with each other too.. Whos right ? I Can Boil it all Down to there is enought evil today than to worry about tomorrow. this thought about hell and torment and punishment kept me from being saved as a child. it took 15 years later to aproach God once again only looking for mercy. my god is just and will judge before he punishes.
This was a silly little parable told to the pharasees about being smug and unaproachable and possible missing what god really wanted from them. about losing what they thought they had.
about the meek and destitute possibly attaining what god had for them while the self sufficient losing what they thought they possessed. it was about the present moment..not tomorrow.
once again i ask what do you think jesus was trying to tell the pharasees...
Me2
This was a silly little parable told to the pharasees about being smug and unaproachable and possible missing what god really wanted from them. about losing what they thought they had.
about the meek and destitute possibly attaining what god had for them while the self sufficient losing what they thought they possessed. it was about the present moment..not tomorrow.
once again i ask what do you think jesus was trying to tell the pharasees...
Me2
Do you really believe this statement?
Did Jesus tell silly stories?
From your statements, it looks like you construct doctrine out of Internet theories. Search the Scriptures for the Truth. Compare Scripture with Scripture.
If you believe the Holy Divine Righteous, Son of the Living God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus, told silly stories, we have nothing further to discuss.
whens the last time somebody called you a coin? or a sheep,a tare,a light under a basket ?
I say whatever gets you to open your mind to different ways of thinking. of communicating, of looking for the mysteries of god to be unfolded. the interesting thing god says is first seek the kingdom of god and all these things will be added. after that communication occurs in the most funniest ways. what is a parable? a funny story? perhaps...
Me2
I say whatever gets you to open your mind to different ways of thinking. of communicating, of looking for the mysteries of god to be unfolded. the interesting thing god says is first seek the kingdom of god and all these things will be added. after that communication occurs in the most funniest ways. what is a parable? a funny story? perhaps...
Me2
The original language of the scriptures that you quoted me2 was interpreted using the word sleep instead of death because man has always had a problem with dealing with the subject of death but no matter it still does not teach soul sleep.
Jesus consistently spoke of Hell. More than anyone else. A place of torment. A place where there will be great outer darkness. A place where people will be separated from God. Where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Where the worm never dies. Eternal punishment.
As far as people being sent to Hell without knowing why they were being sent there is ridiculous. The Bible makes it plain and very clear that a person will go to Hell who rejects Jesus Christ. If they rejected Jesus they know why they are in Hell. If they chose a life of sin over serving God they know why they are lost. I have heard many of my relatives who are now deceased make the comment that they know they will spend eternity in Hell because they did not accept Jesus. This was a conscience decision.
They wanted the pleasure of this world above anything else.
Paul said he was torn betwixt Going to be with the Lord and staying here with the church. Why would he have said this if when he died he was just going to be sleeping. He said he would be with the Lord. The Book of Ecclesiastes says the spirit of man returns to God. The Hebrew word used for spirit interprets soul. The Book of Revelations speaks about the martyred souls being under the altar and they are conscious and they do speak.
When David said the Dead knows nothing he was talking about here on this earthly plain.
The Jews also have believed in a place called Sheol and they talk about the shades of man or the souls of man in Sheol and they do have a conscious nature. Job spoke about that when he died he would see God.
Who did the apostles see when the transfiguration of Jesus take place. Moses and Elijah. We can understand Elijah because he was taken up to Heaven with a whirlwind alive but if we just sleep until judgement how is it possible that Moses who died appeared?
I have had friends who believed in soul sleep. Half of their organization believed in soul sleep and half did not. There has been recorded cases in this organization that people who was taught soul sleep and really had believed it at their death had their beliefs changed because they started seeing things on the other side. People would be around them who believed in soul sleep and when they would hear what the dying was saying they would say they were hallucinating trying to defend their beliefs but one incident that shook their beliefs was when a young man was dying and he started describing things on the other side. People started saying he was hallucinating but he started talking to someone and when his mom asked him who he was talking to he said his Great Grandfather. She asked him to describe him to her and he described him exactly and she knew that there was no way possible for her son to have known what he looked like because the great grandfather had been dead for 40 years and all pictures of him had been destroyed in a fire and her son was not even 30.
There has been too many incidents where people who are dying see things on the other side to substantiate a belief that is not true. Besides that the Bible does not teach soul sleep.
Jesus consistently spoke of Hell. More than anyone else. A place of torment. A place where there will be great outer darkness. A place where people will be separated from God. Where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Where the worm never dies. Eternal punishment.
As far as people being sent to Hell without knowing why they were being sent there is ridiculous. The Bible makes it plain and very clear that a person will go to Hell who rejects Jesus Christ. If they rejected Jesus they know why they are in Hell. If they chose a life of sin over serving God they know why they are lost. I have heard many of my relatives who are now deceased make the comment that they know they will spend eternity in Hell because they did not accept Jesus. This was a conscience decision.
They wanted the pleasure of this world above anything else.
Paul said he was torn betwixt Going to be with the Lord and staying here with the church. Why would he have said this if when he died he was just going to be sleeping. He said he would be with the Lord. The Book of Ecclesiastes says the spirit of man returns to God. The Hebrew word used for spirit interprets soul. The Book of Revelations speaks about the martyred souls being under the altar and they are conscious and they do speak.
When David said the Dead knows nothing he was talking about here on this earthly plain.
The Jews also have believed in a place called Sheol and they talk about the shades of man or the souls of man in Sheol and they do have a conscious nature. Job spoke about that when he died he would see God.
Who did the apostles see when the transfiguration of Jesus take place. Moses and Elijah. We can understand Elijah because he was taken up to Heaven with a whirlwind alive but if we just sleep until judgement how is it possible that Moses who died appeared?
I have had friends who believed in soul sleep. Half of their organization believed in soul sleep and half did not. There has been recorded cases in this organization that people who was taught soul sleep and really had believed it at their death had their beliefs changed because they started seeing things on the other side. People would be around them who believed in soul sleep and when they would hear what the dying was saying they would say they were hallucinating trying to defend their beliefs but one incident that shook their beliefs was when a young man was dying and he started describing things on the other side. People started saying he was hallucinating but he started talking to someone and when his mom asked him who he was talking to he said his Great Grandfather. She asked him to describe him to her and he described him exactly and she knew that there was no way possible for her son to have known what he looked like because the great grandfather had been dead for 40 years and all pictures of him had been destroyed in a fire and her son was not even 30.
There has been too many incidents where people who are dying see things on the other side to substantiate a belief that is not true. Besides that the Bible does not teach soul sleep.
i think youve been watching too much jonathan edwards on tv. the guy who lets relatives and friends talk with "the dead". common sense tells you that we will be judged before proceeding to our future destination. mary dont communicate to the living. that would be way too confusing. shintoism is a strong belief of the japanese. praying for the dead to help the living. more myths. zorastrians and the egyptians both believed in an afterlife. a resurrection. transmigration.... coming back as something or someone else. or even paying for your crimes or faults in an eternal state or your next existence. plato thought about an eternal soul (or immortal). just to name a few misconceptions that was invented before jesus got there. remember the jews were in babylon (zorastrians). Remember the story of the valley of dry bones. Speak to the bone. That was a little story That god threw into the bible that included the cult of the zorastrians, waiting for their ressurection.How About Mummies. Where do they "go".That was way back in moses time. Still Being taught right before jesus got there.
translation from hebrew or aramaic or latin to greek to english. weve messed it up. it makes believing the bible an impossible task. everything we understand about god is by faith. he has to communicate and have a personal relationship with us. for us to even try to believe what "his word" means.
theres a lot of weird, funny, sad, interesting things that we can talk with god about in his word. hell, sheol, gehenna, hades, grave, tartarus,tophet...what translation are we using for this moment. My readings (and interpretations) is that the old testament writers never mentioned a physical place other than "the pit" for hell. the only mention of anything related to death is unseen. a state other than living. up pops this fable,this myth, this story to get these peoples attention. a story that they have heard of before. jesus wraps a parable into this story to allow the pharasees to look at themselves. at the moment.
this is a parable that a few people concentrate or focus to. to describe hell. the doctrine of eternal torment requires this parable to be absolutley true.
find a new one. this story is bases on myths and current folklore of the day. even the saducees would not accept the teachings of our forefathers to be included into public teachings. Isnt That What Jesus Was Warning The People about. Go Figure.
translation from hebrew or aramaic or latin to greek to english. weve messed it up. it makes believing the bible an impossible task. everything we understand about god is by faith. he has to communicate and have a personal relationship with us. for us to even try to believe what "his word" means.
theres a lot of weird, funny, sad, interesting things that we can talk with god about in his word. hell, sheol, gehenna, hades, grave, tartarus,tophet...what translation are we using for this moment. My readings (and interpretations) is that the old testament writers never mentioned a physical place other than "the pit" for hell. the only mention of anything related to death is unseen. a state other than living. up pops this fable,this myth, this story to get these peoples attention. a story that they have heard of before. jesus wraps a parable into this story to allow the pharasees to look at themselves. at the moment.
this is a parable that a few people concentrate or focus to. to describe hell. the doctrine of eternal torment requires this parable to be absolutley true.
find a new one. this story is bases on myths and current folklore of the day. even the saducees would not accept the teachings of our forefathers to be included into public teachings. Isnt That What Jesus Was Warning The People about. Go Figure.
im sorry i didnt try to address your last post
Soul Sleep To Some Organizations or groups of people dont compute with me.
My Belief about death.....your dead, inanimate, not breathing, dead as a door nail, gone and not coming back, here lies, just layin there sleeping (sorta).
i dont follow the pack. i read in the bible that one moment your alive. the next moment your in the presence of god. Low and behold there a whole lot of other folks there too. good bad and ugly. its judgement time. nobodys being punished or receivin rewards before the judgement. that makes the parable that jesus was speaking about by my reckoning a fable...
think about this... moms and dads in "paradise" lookin over this gulf, this river. why dont we call it "the river styx". Sound familiar ? there looking at little timmy or qute little susy in "Hell" agonizing in pain.....Forever.
It Was a Fable that jesus was speaking to the pharasees. I Even Think Of It As An ironic story.
sounded like jesus was really trying to embellish it. just for these guys....
thank god even death and hell will be destroyed....rev 20:14
Soul Sleep To Some Organizations or groups of people dont compute with me.
My Belief about death.....your dead, inanimate, not breathing, dead as a door nail, gone and not coming back, here lies, just layin there sleeping (sorta).
i dont follow the pack. i read in the bible that one moment your alive. the next moment your in the presence of god. Low and behold there a whole lot of other folks there too. good bad and ugly. its judgement time. nobodys being punished or receivin rewards before the judgement. that makes the parable that jesus was speaking about by my reckoning a fable...
think about this... moms and dads in "paradise" lookin over this gulf, this river. why dont we call it "the river styx". Sound familiar ? there looking at little timmy or qute little susy in "Hell" agonizing in pain.....Forever.
It Was a Fable that jesus was speaking to the pharasees. I Even Think Of It As An ironic story.
sounded like jesus was really trying to embellish it. just for these guys....
thank god even death and hell will be destroyed....rev 20:14