Intermediate Hell?

[Dr. Bob]

I would liken ge'enna (valley of sons of Hinnom) of which Jesus spoke so often

" . . go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

to the Lake of Fire, NOT a separate entity. Notice the wording about ge'enna - fire not quenched, smoke of torment for ever and ever - and it seems to be more than a "temporary" locale such as hades.

Death and Hades are cast into this burning lake and this is the second death. People might think the accurate and detailed story of Eleazar the begger (we call him Lazarus) is fictional; Jesus never used real people and real names in a parable.

Nevertheless, it does not change the revealed fact about ge'enna/lake of fire. Death and Hades are dumped into it. Real. Can't talk about metaphors or parables. Awful place of eternal torment.

 

[Me2]

Beginning at Luke 14 Jesus was Invited to eat at a Chief Pharisee on The Sabbath

Luke 14:7 He Begins to tell them a parable:
Luk 14:8-14 (parable no. 1)
then he continues with
Luk 14:16-24 (parable no.2)
then he continues again
Luk 14:26-35 (parable no.3)
then he further continues with
Luk 15:4-7 (parable no.4)
gees he still continues speaking
Luk 15:8-10 (parable no.5)
and continuing still further...
Luk 15:11-32 (parable no.6)
and continuing.....
Luk 16:1-13 (parable no.7)
he takes a left turn he with the pronouncement of the law against adultry and remarraige
but after that he continues with he disertation of back to back parables....
Luk 16:19-31 (parable no.8)
He then changes his attention to his disciples to teach them something personally.
Jesus didnt mention between any of these parables whether he was stopping or starting up a new parable. It Is interesting is you join all of these parables that there would be a leading stream of logic with a conclusion. jesus came to save the lost. all that were not of the bloodline of abraham but of the spiritual belief that started with abraham. notice the lazarus parable. "father abraham". it was the rich man that represented by the pharisees. the rich man didnt ask for god the father or christ to save him but, father abraham. also our bible starts and stops with chapters and numbered sentences. the original did not.

 

[hrhema]

me 2 and your point?????

 

[Me2]

That The Promise of a blessed life in the future of the people jesus was speaking to would change to a life of torment. namely the jews who believed that following the law sufficed gods requirements of a holy life. shortly thereafter the entire jewish community was plunged into a world of worms dying not, and knashing of teeth, in a world without a savior and the unquenching fire of knowing that the gentiles (lazarus) were in fact the true descendants of gods blessings. Simplify the parable to its essentials...abrahams bloodline, punishment...
abrahams faith, blessings...doesnt it seem odd that the jews for 2000 years have been punished, still looking for one who rose from the dead. im just saying that the people jesus was speaking to would recognize the imagery of the story but the meaning would go right over their head. that i dont believe in a physical intermediate hell? (or place of punishment/blessings) until we have a resurrected body. and for me this story describes too many things of inconsistency. what did the rich guy do wrong, or lazarus do right?. angels carrying lazarus?
father abraham? blessed watching cursed and intercommunicating?. why was there a great gulf ? (the impossibility of self-righteousness) or the suggestion of one rising from the dead?
Jesus was describing his mission of saving that which was lost, even to the point of telling them who the lost was. and that the pharisees through their own pride (and even adulterous ways) had forsaken gods true desire for his people...Humility and faith

 

[hrhema]

Jesus spoke about Hell more than anyone else Me2.
He did not hide the fact that this was a place of torment. He did not speak about Hell in parables but made it very clear. He warned people that it would be better for them to cut off a member of their body and go into Heaven maimed then to have their whole body cast into Hell. He told us not to fear those who can destroy our bodies but he that can cast our whole body into Hell.

You sound like a lot of people who want to think about God's merciful side but refuse to acknowledge that God has another side. One of judgement, wrath and anger. Read the many stories in the Old Testament of how Israel was
judged by God. How many thousands died by his hand of judgement because of their rebellious ways and their stubbornness. God performed miracle after miracle in front of these people.
He brought them out of slavery and gave them a land of wealth and riches. They saw and experienced things that most people never saw but they murmured and complained and griped. They turned to idol worship and spiritual adultery.
They adopted the pagan practices of Baal worship and Ashteroth worship. They worshiped Asherah poles which were symbols of the males private part.

God turned to the Gentiles to make Israel Jealous.
These people rejected his son and demanded his blood and anyone can question why the 2000 something years of them being in spiritual darkness.

How can anyone question the feasability of Hell?
Jesus came to this planet. Left his home in glory. Wrapped himself in human flesh and became poor so we could become rich.

He walked 3 years teaching good news that people could be free from their sins. Healing the sick, raising the dead, performing miracles.

Then he went to the cross and suffered such humiliation and degradation and pain. He was stripped totally naked and had 6 inch spikes drove into his wrists and his feet. He was whipped with a flagellum that contained bits of bone and stone until the flesh was ripped from his back. He suffered all of this being the sinless Lamb of God so we could be saved. Then we question God's decision to judge men who reject this sacrifice of his son.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be that day in Paradise with him. So if we just sleep would not this have made Jesus a liar?

Why did Paul have this feeling of being torn between staying on Earth or going to be with the Lord. This is what he said. He did not say he was going to be languishing in the grave until the end of time but that he was going to be with the Lord.

I have more than once given you scripture debunking your beliefs in soul sleep as others have but you persist in your error.

 

[Me2]

If you would like to think that i believe when a person dies that their body returns to the dust.
and their spirit/soul is kept by God until a time he chooses to do what with it , Great! because i do. Total destruction of the soul would mean Gods perfect plan developed imperfections. I cant believe that, nor can i believe God created the human being for eternal punishment. Another Flaw In His Plans... That also would make God seem inferior to his creation.

My personal beliefs was once believing in a doctrine of eternal punishment. Continuosly waiting for the rapture. Until i got tired of waiting and thinking that Gods creation deserved eternal torment.

Yes, Im A Baptist whos changed from Believing in eternal punishment to one who believes in Universal Salvation. If Someone needs to be corrected to re-enter into Gods futuristic Kingdom. I Guess Thats His Business. Didnt Christ Die For The Sins Of The World, or isnt it Gods Will That All Mankind Be Saved.? Didnt Christ Suffice In Taking The Wrath of God That You And I Deserved.

Im Sorry If I Cant Continue To Judge Others When I Know Judgement Will Be Coming Back Home To Me. Anyone Can Think Of This Escatology till The Cows Come Home And it Will Not Add one Thing to Their Salvation. But Thinking About Punishment and torment and judging everyone will Take Its Toll on oneself. On Continually Thinking God Is A Righteous judge who demands vengence and retribution, By administering unimaginable and unending pain?.. To A Creation that He Loves?. Give God A Break! Give Gods Perfect Plan Some Credit.

Yes I Can Accept Correction to Be "Found" once again, or God To Reclaim Whats His Already.But To Destroy What He Created ? (and Called Good)

Can You Ever Imagine That God In His Infinite wisdom will end the physical life of an unruley person to bring them back into the fold in a way in which we dont understand or havent been told about in the bible. An untimely or accidental death. The answer of bringing these people into the fold exists. we just cant comprehend it (or wont accept it). This "human lifespan" is a very short period compared to eternity.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Me2 - say what? You are a Baptist who believes that everyone will be in heaven? That sort of universalism seems so far from baptistic belief that I find it odd that you opt to classify yourself by the historic baptist label.

[Aside] Guess I will have to rewrite John 14:6 next time. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life; all men come to the Father by Me."

So - what do you do with John 3:36 and a hundred other passages that disagree with what YOU think?

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Me2]

Yes im the other baptist.
We all Know that there are many interpretations of Eternal Life, and the end times that doesnt match up correctly with each other opinions or beliefs. As has been with others in our christian past. The Foundational beliefs are all the same until we get to eschatology.. when we try to put our best guess forward until proven wrong or just plain change our minds. just like the parable that we are discussing. individual eschatology can define how the individual "interprets" what is being perceived. wrong or right.. my interjection started with defining that jesus was speaking a parable. nothing literal. The people discussing this parable knows that this is a (possible) foundational exposition to define hell and (possibly eternal punishment) as being somewhat torturous. an afterlife with pain and sorrow based on their literal viewpoint. my perceptions differed. OK so i tryed to broaden the picture to include other subjects. All Of us can use scriptures to define our viewpoints. So Has Many Who Came Before Us, Defining Their own beliefs.
OK So I Dont Discuss Foundational Doctrine. My Escatalogical Beliefs Does Not Violate Baptist Foundational Doctrine. Im More Concerned why others cant accept Me Believing what I Want
and just being able to express my opinion. Ill Use The Same Scriptures to defend them!..

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I guess people only have to say they are Baptist nowadays. They don't have to prove it. I'm waiting for the baptist non-theists to take over the board. Or the wiccan baptists. Perhaps the hindu baptists. And then the Shirley MacLaine baptists.

Me2, read your bible. People who's names aren't in the book of life...

Revelation 20:15
Luke 9:26
Luke 12:9
Mark 8:38
Matthew 10:33
2Timothy 2:12

The bible does not support your opinions...

Psalm 118:8

 

[hrhema]

God is a perfect God and he created perfectly but he allowed sin to blemish his creation by giving man a free will.

One of the greatest historical proofs of the existence of Hell was found in the writings of the private nurse who took care of the atheist Voltaire upon his death. She swore she would never ever sit with another atheist in her life time.

She said the day Voltaire died he screamed, "I see him, I see him. Nazarene you have won. What are these terrible creatures I am seeing. The flames they are so hot. He began screaming, I'm lost, I'm lost. Then he sat up in bed with a horrifying expression clawing the air then died.

This man was one of the greatest atheists who lived. He fought against all Christians and destroyed many Bibles. He caused many a blood bath through his war against Christianity. So was this the imagination of someone who thought there
was a Hell. No. He did not believe in the existence of a God or a Hell until his death bed and he faced it himself.

Again Jesus spoke of a place of eternal punishment more than anyone else. It is not fiction. It is not make believe. Deciding not to believe it is not going to change the fact that God judges and people are lost and spend eternity in Hell. They are not in Hell because
of sin per se but because they rejected Jesus as their Saviour.

 

[hrhema]

Ignoring the truth about Hell will not make it go away nor will refusing to believe in a Hell.

Jesus spoke about this subject and being God manifested in the flesh he would have known.

Those who usually go this direction in their beliefs do so because they want to continue living in sin and want to sear their conscience that there will be no repurcussions to their lifestyle. This may soothe their conscience but it does not alter the fact that there is a Hell and a place of eternal punishment.

Others teach an annihilation doctrine that when God judges the lost he is going to totally annihilate them or disintegrate them. Again this is a liberal thought that God is going to mercifully destroy the lost instead of eternally punishing them. If this was true then those who died lost will never suffer for their sins.
They went through life doing whatever they want with no consequences. Sorry, I don' buy into this lie from Satan.

There is a hell. There is a lake of fire.
The Bible says it and that ends it.