Intro to Lordship Salvation- Reviewed

[skypair]

[/I]

I Cor. 15:12-20 talks exclusively of the resurrection. There is no mention whatsoever of "regeneration".

Everything you stated concerning this passage is pure speculation on your part.

I have never seen anyone build theology on such unstable ground.

peace to youraying:

I looked this up again last night because I remembered how irrate Paul got at the Corinthians for not "getting" this -- not understanding from the day of their salvation what resurrection he was talking about.

Look at 1Cor15:34 and following. In verse 34, Paul gives them the command that Christ will give believing Israel on the day of their resurrection from their graves, Isa 60:1!! "Awake to righteousness and sin not..."

The he says, "... for some have not the knowledge of God I speak to your shame. For some man will say, 'How are the dead raised up? and with what body?'" (jd, don't be offended but YOU apparently "do not have the knowedge of God" much like these Corinthians.) Thou fool,...

What didn't they know that Paul should call them "fools?" That when they were saved, THEY died and were buried with Christ and were raised from the dead a new man/woman -- resurrected!! Sure their sins were forgiven. That all happened at the cross. What is the "current event" is that I die to self and am resurrected to live for Christ.

Did your salvation NOT do this? With Calvinism, I see that distinct possibility! They seem to think that they are resurrected before they even hear to gospel so they can hear the gospel! They call it "regeneration." Then it would make sense that they repent of sins and not self -- we don't/can't die the second death once we are saved, can we!! Neither do we go from new birth to death to new birth again, right? "Saved again" just puts Christ to an open shame.

15:36 - "Thou fool, that which is thou sowest is not quickened except it die." You can't be born again/resurrected unless YOU die in Christ. That is what baptism means. And the pastor didn't leave you down to drown (as God has believing Israel all these years in their graves) because YOU, like Christ, were raised up again ---- resurrected!

15:37 -- and when you are saved, you don't sow the body which you shall be in the new birth. If you are the same person you were before salvation except "repented of your sins," all you've done is "turned over a new leaf." Believers and unbelievers at times will repent of their sins and try to correct their shortcomings so that they won't be subject to the wrath of God.

15:38 -- But when you are resurrected, God living in you, gives you a new body "as it pleaseth Him."

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

I looked this up again last night because I remembered how irrate Paul got at the Corinthians for not "getting" this -- not understanding from the day of their salvation what resurrection he was talking about.

Look at 1Cor15:34 and following. In verse 34, Paul gives them the command that Christ will give believing Israel on the day of their resurrection from their graves, Isa 60:1!! "Awake to righteousness and sin not..."

The he says, "... for some have not the knowledge of God I speak to your shame. For some man will say, 'How are the dead raised up? and with what body?'" (jd, don't be offended but YOU apparently "do not have the knowedge of God" much like these Corinthians.) Thou fool,...

Once again, you are just so wrong on the context that it really is impossible at this point to communicate with you. Your arrogance in assuming I "don't have the knowledge of God" like the Corinthians because I don't agree with your "interpretation", if you can even call it that, is repulsive.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

If you know the polarizing statements, the catch-phrases and how JM (and LS advocates) define key terms, the errors are not hard to detect when compared with Scripture.

BTW, there is the appearance of another little known, but strange view of doctrine of JM in his Intro to LS. Do you see where it appears, it and know which I refer to? It is there, but in subtile terms. It is not a Calvinistic leaning, something else.

That is the mystery issue that I may lead with.

To all:

So here we have it. John MacArthur speaks in a super secret code language that only he, his followers, and Lou Martuneac understand.

It is very subtile, so watch out or you will miss the mystery.

For example: When John MacArthur says "you are saved by Grace, through faith" and salvation is "completely a work of God" and that men can "do no works to earn salvation", that is a subtile way (in the super secret MacArthur code language) of saying "you must work to earn your salvation." See how easy that is?

When MacArthur says, "repentance and faith are gifts of God by Holy Spirit" and that "since God provides faith as a gift He would give none that is defective of Lordship" that is a subtile way (in the super secret MacArthur code language) of saying "you must have an upfront commitment to discipleship to earn your salvation".

Just listen to Lou, or go to his blog, and he will teach you how to decypher the language. It pretty much envolves "opposite speech". Whatever MacArthur says, just accuse him of saying the opposite and call him a false teacher (based on your "redefining" of his words) and claim he is leading people to hell.

peace to youraying:

 

[TCGreek]

To all:

So here we have it. John MacArthur speaks in a super secret code language that only he, his followers, and Lou Martuneac understand.

It is very subtile, so watch out or you will miss the mystery.

For example: When John MacArthur says "you are saved by Grace, through faith" and salvation is "completely a work of God" and that men can "do no works to earn salvation", that is a subtile way (in the super secret MacArthur code language) of saying "you must work to earn your salvation." See how easy that is?

When MacArthur says, "repentance and faith are gifts of God by Holy Spirit" and that "since God provides faith as a gift He would give none that is defective of Lordship" that is a subtile way (in the super secret MacArthur code language) of saying "you must have an upfront commitment to discipleship to earn your salvation".

Just listen to Lou, or go to his blog, and he will teach you how to decypher the language. It pretty much evolves "opposite speech". Whatever MacArthur says, just accuse him of saying the opposite and call him a false teacher (based on your "redefining" of his words) and claim he is leading people to hell.

peace to youraying:

I'm following this debate.

 

[canadyjd]

MacArthur apologist does not convey the fact that MacArthur's regeneration before faith position is arrived at because the Scriptures cited are interpreted and redefined through the lens of five point Calvinism.

"MacArthur apologist"? I don't remember posting anything as "MacArthur apologist". Could it be that Lou changed words in my post, and then "quoted" it as if it were my post?

Amazing that a "scholar" of such stature could be caught comitting such an intellectually dishonest deed.

But then again, it is Lou Martuneac. This is how he twist MacArthur's words and the rest he "contends for the gospel" with. You have to expect things like this from him.

You see, he doesn't actually engage the text to see if MacArthur is correct. He dismisses his position as (yikes!) a calvinist position. Because it is a calvinist position, everybody knows it is "extra-biblical".

It is the same old sad story. When you can't compete in the arena of ideas, just attack their character.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I'm following this debate.

Glad to have you aboard.:wavey: I read your comments in the other thread. I found you to be very thoughtful concerning the scriptures mentioned, and respectful to those posting. I hope you read what MacArthur believes and teaches from his own material. I think you will find it interesting.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Speaking of "pure speculation", how about redefining "repent" (Gk/ metanoeO) as "repent of/from sin"?

Is that "speculation"? Or just bad theology' on "such unstable ground"?

Ed

Good point. I just have a basic understanding that "repentance" (turning) refers to repenting(turning) from sin. Sin is the "falling short" of what God expects of us, and usually refers to specific behavior. To "repent" or "turn" means to "turn" from something.

Perhaps you can shed some light here. Do you know of scripture were "repenting" was associated with something other than a specific behavior?

What I am not wrong about, however, is the context of I Cor. 15. Paul is clearly speaking of the resurrection of dead, not "resurrected/regenerated" body. I have never heard of regeneration referred to as being "resurrected" before, but then again, I am open to learn. Just show me where to find it in scripture. (please don't say I Cor 15, we've already been there.)

peace to youraying:

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Folks:

The MacArthur apologist has not yet detected the mystery issue in JM's Intro to Lordship Salvation.

As I noted it is NOT a Calvinistic leaning. I wrote to WebDog,

BTW, there is the appearance of another little known, but strange view of doctrine of JM in his Intro to LS. Do you see where it appears, it and know which I refer to? It is there, but in subtle terms. It is not a Calvinistic leaning, something else. That is the mystery issue that I may lead with.

That note was apparently forgotten.

Keep searching.


LM

PS: Your emotions are showing again.

 

[canadyjd]

PS: Your emotions are showing again.

Your intellectual dishonest is showing again, as well. But the good news is that it only shows when you actually post something.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Lou Martuneac
If you know the polarizing statements, the catch-phrases and how JM (and LS advocates) define key terms, the errors are not hard to detect when compared with Scripture.

BTW, there is the appearance of another little known, but strange view of doctrine of JM in his Intro to LS. Do you see where it appears, it and know which I refer to? It is there, but in subtile terms. It is not a Calvinistic leaning, something else.

That is the mystery issue that I may lead with.

When do you plan on letting us in on the "mystery"?

 

[skypair]

Once again, you are just so wrong on the context that it really is impossible at this point to communicate with you. Your arrogance in assuming I "don't have the knowledge of God" like the Corinthians because I don't agree with your "interpretation", if you can even call it that, is repulsive.

OK, just go back to my previous post as answer --- what did your baptism signify? Or were you baptized? Very simple. I won't treat you like a Corinthian (that was merely by way of instruction - no offfense intended), just answer -- if not to me then to yourself.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Good point. I just have a basic understanding that "repentance" (turning) refers to repenting(turning) from sin. Sin is the "falling short" of what God expects of us, and usually refers to specific behavior. To "repent" or "turn" means to "turn" from something.

Yes, repenting is turning from and it is important, of course, WHO you turn to!

It is VERY important that a BELIEVER repent with godly repentance to God, 2Cor 7:9-11. But even more important is repentance unto SALVATION, Acts 2:38 -- repentance from being a SINNER to being a CHRISTIAN. Often it is called "conversion." Basically is DEATH to self, NEW LIFE in Christ!!

What I am not wrong about, however, is the context of I Cor. 15. Paul is clearly speaking of the resurrection of dead, not "resurrected/regenerated" body.

Yes -- and are you a "dead" yet? Have you been "resurrected" by the Holy Spirit yet? Read John 12:25-26 for me - "... he that loveth life shall lose it, and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

BTW -- 1Cor 15 reveals everything about the life of ALL believers -- OT, NT, trib -- from hearing the gospel to entering into the kingdom of God on earth!

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

OK, just go back to my previous post as answer --- what did your baptism signify? Or were you baptized? Very simple. I won't treat you like a Corinthian (that was merely by way of instruction - no offfense intended), just answer -- if not to me then to yourself.

I know what it signifies, skypair. That just isn't what Paul is talking about in I Cor. 15. He is talking of the coming resurrection and transformation of our "in the grave, dead, decaying, rotted, nothing left but moldy bones" human body.

He is not speaking of regeneration that occurs in connection to salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[Jarthur001]

When do you plan on letting us in on the "mystery"?

the mystery is a game.

The game goes like this.

1st) Make others think you are on a higher level of understanding then the average bear.
2nd) Never prove it.
3rd) If they guess something, tell them they are wrong and they need to try again.


This always will be a mystery...for there is no answer given that is a mystery.

NOTE: Some tips to remember in this game..
It always helps, if you can start calling others names if they do not agree with you. and what ever you do...never give others the answer, for then its no longer a mystery.

I hope this helps. Good luck in HIS game.

 

[Amy.G]

the mystery is a game.

The game goes like this.

1st) Make others think you are on a higher level of understanding then the average bear.
2nd) Never prove it.
3rd) If they guess something, tell them they are wrong and they need to try again.


This always will be a mystery...for there is no answer given that is a mystery.

NOTE: Some tips to remember in this game..
It always helps, if you can start calling others names if they do not agree with you. and what ever you do...never give others the answer, for then its no longer a mystery.

I hope this helps. Good luck in HIS game.

No thanks. :laugh: I think I'll pass. I don't like that kind of game.

 

[skypair]

I know what it signifies, skypair.

He is not speaking of regeneration that occurs in connection to salvation.[/QUOTE] So baptism signifies that you died in Christ and are resurrected to new life the day you were saved, right?

That just isn't what Paul is talking about in I Cor. 15. He is talking of the coming resurrection and transformation of our "in the grave, dead, decaying, rotted, nothing left but moldy bones" human body.

Truly, Paul is talking about ALL of these things. Let me outline it for you. 1-8 he teaches the gospel of salvation with particular attention to Christ's own resurrection.

12-20 he questions why, if Christ be raised, they don't believe in their own resurrection.

In 22-24, he speaks of 3 raptures: 1) Jesus, 2) the church pretrib, and 3) Israel postMK when all things will be delivered up to God (25-28).

If this is so (22-24), then why are we baptized? Not for the rapture. Not for that resurrection but for this life! Look what Paul is talking about (30-38) -- die daily ... fighting with beasts ... what advantage? Would anyone do this on his own purpose? NO! But God has resurrected Paul as it pleased Him to -- in another place he says, "We know not what we shall be but..."

In 39-41, he explains that the resurrection to new life is unto "terrestrial glory" and the rapture to heaven is to "celestial glory."

So 42-49 is pretty tricky because, though Paul has already spoken of the resurrection of the dead (35), he here states "So also is the resurrection of the dead." (42) Huh? Here he begins to speak of the resurrection of the OT saints. It sounds very much like our "living" resurrection. Verse 48 is the key -- "As is the earthy, so are they which are earthy [OT saints]; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly." IOW, raised separately to these 2 places in the appropriate time.

But of ALL, Paul concludes -- "flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven" (50). Therefore, we ALL THE ABOVE (15:29-49) at some point must be changed/raptured to bodies like Christ's, "celestial bodies!"

I hope this gives you a handle on 1Cor 15. As to resurrection at salvation, the Corinthians were missing it -- "missing a promise of entering into His rest" (Heb 4:1), of "ceasing from our own work, as God did from His (4:9) -- don't you miss it too.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

I hope this gives you a handle on 1Cor 15. As to resurrection at salvation, the Corinthians were missing it...

Please, please, please stop! I honestly have never seen anyone approach scripture the way you do.

It seems you have a pre-concieved notion of what you want it to say, and then just apply your notion to every text you find. Words have no meaning except what you apply to them. Context has no importance.

In love, I say, you are not even close to understanding I Cor. 15. You completely miss it.

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

In love, I say, you are not even close to understanding I Cor. 15. You completely miss it.

On your behalf, I consulted some of Adrian Rogers old sermons (my notes). You will find the same thing regarding resurrection in Rom 6:4-11.

You are a mighty strange Baptist not to have encountered this ever before. In that sermon, AR said that Romans is the "Emancipation Proclamation of the Bible for Christians" and that lack of understanding of it "disappoints God and frustrates your privileges."

In his sermon "Three Steps to Victory" he said, "Know, Reckon, Yield." Know -- that in baptism you identify with Christ. Not only did He die for me but I died with Him. Then he refers us over to 1Cor 15 where he said we also see that if we were buried with Christ in salvation, we are also raised with Him, Rom 6:4-5.

Resurrected, jd -- come out of the grave. Again, exactly what Paul alluded to when he told the Corinthians to "Awake unto righteousness..." It means, "come out of your graves!"

Reckon -- same as "appropriate" which we dicussed on the other thread.

Yield -- imputed righteousness becomes imparted righteousness as we reckon ourselves dead and risen every day (also in 1Cor 15:31).

I may not be a "master" of communication but I do know what I am talking about. Merry Christmas!

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

There is no Scripture that categorically teaches men are born again (regenerated) before faith/believing in the Lord. It is, therefore, an EXTRA-BIBLICAL teaching that is antithetical to Scripture.

To all. To say that a belief is "EXTRA-BIBLICAL" means the person holding that belief forms the basis of that belief from something other than scripture.

Please allow me to post part of MacArthur's statement on regeneration again, with specific focus on the understanding that regeneration precedes faith.

We teach that regeneration is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit by which the divine nature and divine life are given (John 3:3 7; Titus 3:5). It is instantaneous and is accomplished solely by the power of the Holy Spirit through the instrumentality of the Word of God (John 5:24), when the repentant sinner, as enabled by the Holy Spirit, responds in faith to the divine provision of salvation.

John MacArthur bases his belief that regeneration precedes faith on at least 3 verses of scripture, to which he makes references to. There is, therefore, a biblical basis for the belief. He makes no reference to Calvinism that I can see.

Of course no one has to agree with MacArthur's interpretation of these passages of scripture, but that is not the point. The point is that for Lou Martuneac to continually make the claim that MacArthur's belief is "EXTRA-BIBLICAL" is easily demonstrated to be untrue and therefore intellectually dishonest.

By making the claim MacArthur's belief is "EXTRA-BIBLICAL", Lou dismisses it as unworthy of addressing, instead of engaging the relavant passages of scripture to show why his, Lou's, understanding is better than MacArthur's.

And so, we waste time debating whether a belief is found in scripture or not, rather than debating what scripture actually says.

This is the kind of intellectual dishonesty that hinders civil debate between believers concerning very important issues of Christian doctrine, such as Lordship Salvation.

peace to you all, and Merry Christmasraying:

 

[canadyjd]

On your behalf, I consulted some of Adrian Rogers old sermons (my notes). You will find the same thing regarding resurrection in Rom 6:4-11.......I may not be a "master" of communication but I do know what I am talking about. Merry Christmas!

skypair

Merry Christmas, skypair

peace to youraying: