Intro to Lordship Salvation- Reviewed

[skypair]

I've noticed that many times we get hung up on timing. Personally, I believe that faith and repentance happen at the same time. I don't think it's possible to have faith without the working of the Holy Spirit and I don't believe we can come to Christ without rejecting our sin directed life. I believe repentance consists of turning away from the master called sin or the world and turning towards a Christ centered life. Actually, I think that's what you're saying when you talk about repentence from self.

What you say last is true. But IF repentance doesn't come first, THEN you will not receive faith.

As I have commented before, the faith we receive is on account of seeing things God's way and receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling. You seem to make "election" and God the cause of indwelling -- I make repentance and God the cause thereof. Now you might counter "effectual calling" but that is secondary to "election" as a cause.

I can see where it all would be over in a minute. But, to me, God isn't "giving away" the Spirit. You cite a cause and I cite a cause fo God to give Him. Acts 2:38 (among others) says repent ... receive the Holy Spirit. Where does the Bible say be elect ... receive the Spirit or receive the Spirit ... be elect?

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

Oh! That's not right! Taunting me now, are you? :laugh:

Happy New Year to you, too! I didn't look but are you from the part of America where you eat greens for money and beans for luck in the new year? I got a "killer" Hoppin' John (black eyed pea) recipe! Well, it's Paul Prudhomme's actually. But it makes a mess of peas/luck! C'mon over!

skypair

My folks are from Arkansas, but "migrated" to Missouri just after the great depression. Funny how these ole superstitions keep popping up, aint it?:smilewinkgrin:

Your blackeyed peas recipe sounds like a winner!!!

peace to you in the New Yearraying:

 

[JustChristian]

What you say last is true. But IF repentance doesn't come first, THEN you will not receive faith.

As I have commented before, the faith we receive is on account of seeing things God's way and receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling. You seem to make "election" and God the cause of indwelling -- I make repentance and God the cause thereof. Now you might counter "effectual calling" but that is secondary to "election" as a cause.

I can see where it all would be over in a minute. But, to me, God isn't "giving away" the Spirit. You cite a cause and I cite a cause fo God to give Him. Acts 2:38 (among others) says repent ... receive the Holy Spirit. Where does the Bible say be elect ... receive the Spirit or receive the Spirit ... be elect?

skypair

I'm not sure how you read election as the cause of making a decision for Christ in my description. I don't mean to say that at all. Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that I believe that the Holy Spirit acts on the human heart to aid in a free will decision. I would differentiate this from indwelling of the Holy Spirit which comes later but cannot be separated from the decision for Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

I'm not sure how you read election as the cause of making a decision for Christ in my description. I don't mean to say that at all. Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that I believe that the Holy Spirit acts on the human heart to aid in a free will decision. I would differentiate this from indwelling of the Holy Spirit which comes later but cannot be separated from the decision for Christ.

Do you believe Holy Spirit fails with some when He "aids in the free will decision"?

peace to youraying:

 

[JustChristian]

Do you believe Holy Spirit fails with some when He "aids in the free will decision"?

peace to youraying:

To tell you the truth I don't pretend to understand the involvement of the Holy Spirit in the salvation decision. I don't know why some people chose life and others choose death. Anyone who says they completely understand this process are claiming to understand the mind and ways of God. Do you claim to understand that?

 

[canadyjd]

To tell you the truth I don't pretend to understand the involvement of the Holy Spirit in the salvation decision. I don't know why some people chose life and others choose death. Anyone who says they completely understand this process are claiming to understand the mind and ways of God. Do you claim to understand that?

I don't claim to understand any of it completely.

One thing that I often say is that the more I learn, the more I realize how little I understand. That said, God has revealed some things concerning this work of Holy Spirit.

For instance, in John 3, God's Word reveals to us that those who are born again are born again according to the will of Holy Spirit, not the will of man.

In John 1, God's Word reveals to us that those who believe and are given the right to become chidren of God, do so by the will of God, not by the will of man.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice and I call them by name" and "they follow Me". It is clear, then, that all the Father has given for salvation will come and believe. The reason is, God is the author of salvation from beginning to end.

I believe in the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man. I believe salvation is a work of Almighty God, that even faith is a gift of God's grace.(Eph.2)

There are those who trust in the sovereignty of man in salvation, and have stated so clearly.

So, since I believe the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man, I can say that I do not believe Holy Spirt would fail in His work to "aid" someone in coming to salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[JustChristian]

I don't claim to understand any of it completely.

One thing that I often say is that the more I learn, the more I realize how little I understand. That said, God has revealed some things concerning this work of Holy Spirit.

For instance, in John 3, God's Word reveals to us that those who are born again are born again according to the will of Holy Spirit, not the will of man.

In John 1, God's Word reveals to us that those who believe and are given the right to become chidren of God, do so by the will of God, not by the will of man.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice and I call them by name" and "they follow Me". It is clear, then, that all the Father has given for salvation will come and believe. The reason is, God is the author of salvation from beginning to end.

I believe in the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man. I believe salvation is a work of Almighty God, that even faith is a gift of God's grace.(Eph.2)

There are those who trust in the sovereignty of man in salvation, and have stated so clearly.

So, since I believe the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man, I can say that I do not believe Holy Spirt would fail in His work to "aid" someone in coming to salvation.

peace to youraying:

I don't believe that the choice is between the sovereignty of God versus the sovereighnty of man. One thing I've never undwestood, however, is how God is glorified and made sovereign through the praise and worship of beings that has essentially forced to do so. The worship of puppits seems to be very hollow and meaningless to me. It seems tome that God is made sovereign through the praise and worship of those who choose to do so through their own free will.

From our perspective, however, I'm not sure that it makes any difference. Personally, I recognize that both sides of this question are supported by scripture. My belief is that the really important thing is tp accept Christ and abide in Him irregardless of the process. It might be through election or through free will or both. All Calvinists except hypercalvinists believe that the preaching of the word is necessary for salvation. Who knows for certain whether they are one of the elect? Who really knows whether Christ's atonement was limited?

I'll put my faith in my Savior and let God handle the rest.

 

[canadyjd]

One thing I've never undwestood, however, is how God is glorified and made sovereign through the praise and worship of beings that has essentially forced to do so. The worship of puppits seems to be very hollow and meaningless to me.

Those of the reformed position, that I know, certainly do not see God as forcing them to worship Him as a puppet in the hands of His master. If He did, however, I would rather be a puppet in the hands of God, than to be master of my own destiny. If it is left up to me, I fail every time.

God regenerates us, transforms our very natures, so that we can see the truth of the gospel and Jesus Christ and respond with repentance and faith (that repentance and faith, too, is a gift of God's grace)

So, it is our decision, and we make it for Christ, but we do so because of the work God has already done in our lives. God is sovereign, and man responds to God's work.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

God is sovereign, and man responds to God's work.

...so when God tells us (believers) not to sin, why do we still sin? I mean, if we respond to God's work how can we do anything but, right?

 

[canadyjd]

...so when God tells us (believers) not to sin, why do we still sin? I mean, if we respond to God's work how can we do anything but, right?

Well, you are speaking of two different issues. First is the work of God in the salvation of men. This is completely a work of God, by which we appropriate the salvation found in Christ Jesus.

The second is how God brings us to maturity in our faith. Even though we have indwelling Holy Spirit, we are still sheep, and sheep are pretty stupid and slow to learn. And we still are affected by sin, those around us, and our own fallen natures.

Whereas before our salvation we sinned without remorse toward God, with indwelling Holy Spirit, our sin grieves Holy Spirit, who convicts us. God disciplines us, and we learn to be more like Him.

So, you see, our maturity is also a response to the work of God in our lives. God is still sovereign and man still responds.

Happy New Year, webdog:1_grouphug:

peace to youraying:

 

[JustChristian]

Mr

Those of the reformed position, that I know, certainly do not see God as forcing them to worship Him as a puppet in the hands of His master. If He did, however, I would rather be a puppet in the hands of God, than to be master of my own destiny. If it is left up to me, I fail every time.

God regenerates us, transforms our very natures, so that we can see the truth of the gospel and Jesus Christ and respond with repentance and faith (that repentance and faith, too, is a gift of God's grace)

So, it is our decision, and we make it for Christ, but we do so because of the work God has already done in our lives. God is sovereign, and man responds to God's work.

peace to youraying:

So if you have the option of whether or not to worship and glorify God, wouldn't an imperfect human being who will continue to sin, most often choose not to do so? If all his actions are predestined what is the difference between one of the elect and the pulpit I described? You say that those of the reformed position do not like this characterization but you didn't provide any real argument to refute it other than to say that being a pulpit is acceptable to you.

 

[canadyjd]

So if you have the option of whether or not to worship and glorify God, wouldn't an imperfect human being who will continue to sin, most often choose not to do so?

Yes. But doing so will grieve Holy Spirit. It will also bring about the discipline of God on the believer which helps correct this error.

If all his actions are predestined what is the difference between one of the elect and the pulpit I described? You say that those of the reformed position do not like this characterization but you didn't provide any real argument to refute it other than to say that being a pulpit is acceptable to you.

I don't remember saying "all of His actions are predestined". Certainly all of his actions are known to God before he does them, but God did not predestine his actions. If God did that, God would be the author of sin, which He is not.

His salvation is predestined. God certainly knows all of his actions, before he does them, and God causes all things to work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

So, God, knowing the actions of every person before they do them, causes all things to work together for good......so intervening in the lives of men so as to bring about His desired will, which is the salvation of His sheep.

BTW, I said being the puppet of Almighty God was an acceptable alternative to being the master of my own destiny. Would you rather be the master of your own destiny?

When you pray, do you pray that God not intervene in your life so you can be the master of your own destiny?

When you pray for loved ones to come to the salvation found in Jesus Christ, do you ask Almighty God not to intervene in their lives, not to violate their ''free-will", but rather let them be the masters of their own destinies?

I'm going to guess that is not how you pray.

peace to youraying: