Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson

Skypair wrote:

There are SO many problems here I don’t know where to begin!

First of all, God did not need to create us; He was not “lonely.” Before anything was created, God enjoyed perfect fellowship within the trinity. Even if we had never been created, God would still be God.

Your first statement (quoted above) is quite problematic. Our creation did not make God, God, as your statement says. Your statement shows a very basic misunderstanding of biblical theology—the self-sufficiency of God

Secondly, Calvinists do not warp time. Time exists because God created it. Since He created time, God works both in time and outside of time. All of these elements are seen in our redemption—He elected us (however you believe that happened…foreseen faith or unconditional election) before time began and He accomplished our salvation in one moment in time, on the cross at Calvary.

Third, and perhaps most alarming, is your statement, “God rewards our sovereign choices according to His character and His plans.”

There is no such thing as human sovereignty—this is fundamental to true biblical theology. If man is sovereign, then God is not. The sovereignty of both man and God cannot, by definition, simultaneously. Either God is sovereign or man is, not both.

If God makes plans (which your statement says He does) and those plans come to fruition, then He gets the glory regardless of who carries them out. The actor (that would be us) cannot be sovereign if God is making plans.

That you would even suggest man has even a modicum of “sovereignty” shows your lack of biblical theology. For God Himself states:

Isaiah 46:8-11
“Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

If this is the case, and it is, God is absolutely sovereign and cannot be thwarted by man, therefore man is not sovereign in any way, shape, or form, for God “Declares the end from the beginning.”

This is the problem with touchy-feely, ooee-gooey theology. I would encourage you to buy and read Grudem’s Systematic Theology or Erickson’s Systematic Theology. Either of these books would go a long way to help you, and you need it, my friend. I'm sorry for the strong tone of this post, but these issues and errors are serious.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Wow. This thread grew over night! I really don't have anything to add other than to praise God for the Christian like fellowship shown in this thread. I pray other threads can be as such. :thumbs:

 

I agree Archangel. Sovereign means there are no others to answer to. Man can never be completely sovereign. Man always has God to answer to. God has no one to answer to. God is truly sovereign.

 

I see your point, but I think it is still shaky. Allan wrote an excellent post which I know you saw. I just wanted to add another $ .02…

Generally speaking, when we start thinking in terms of doctrinal development after the closing of the Canon, we are in dangerous territory. As Allan pointed out, the Apostles, who taught the doctrine, probably knew it far better than we did. But, it is still incumbent us to look at scripture for our practice—and worshiping the Holy Spirit is not ever done.

Further, to suggest we have (or even can have) a more developed doctrine of something after the closing of Canon will, inevitably, lead us down a road we wouldn’t want to go. (It’s kind of like Yoda said, “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”)

Liberalism has done this. In issues of things like human sexuality, they argue, “Well, the apostles (or any biblical writer) couldn’t have known what we know now…” referring to genetics or the “shift” in societal norms, etc. This argument is used to justify all kinds of things that the Bible clearly calls sin.

So, I’d encourage you (and all of us) to strive to be and remain radically biblical in all our deliberations and then test our conclusions against scripture.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Yes! God is always the Creator and man is always the creature. It is always like Romans 9:20 says, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

God may do with us as He wishes and He has complete, total, and absolute sovereignty to do so.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

I agree with Reformed's post but with respect to your above I must add the question that is now manifested from this portion of your post:

What has God decided to do?

Ok, lets not get off on the whole C/A thing yet. We were doing so good to :laugh:
Seriously, as we progress in our discussions it will come to it soon enough. So lets not jump the gum to quickly - agreed?

BTW - Nothing wrong with responding to a post and set forth your view, but lets TRY not to go to quickly ahead by 'maintaining' that discussion and thus derail the intent of the OP. I need ya'll to watch out for me in this to please.

 

I don't think I understand what your question is Allan. Archangel did't say God decided to do something....... he said " God may do with us as He wishes and He has complete, total, and absolute sovereignty to do so."

What is there to question about that statement? In light of this?

Isaiah 46:8-11
“Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

 

Hi Allan! I wasn’t intending to go down the Calvinist/Arminian road. My comments were mostly in response to Skypair’s suggestion that man was in some way “sovereign.”

My comments were intended to show that God’s sovereignty is absolute.

Now, to answer your question broadly, I would say this: God had decided to do whatever He wanted (or wants) to do.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Oh I know that. After re-reading what I wrote, it seemed to imply more than I intended. I noticed you were responding when I was about to go in and delete it. Since I figured you were responding to me I left it alone.

Good posts though.

 

Tim,

You have a winner of a thread here. I would love to keep going over all the doctrines just as we have on this. Good input by many.

Not at all. This is close to what comes 1st. Does theology come before error? No!
The reason why this is asked by so many is that theology is wrote after error comes. But truth always has been, just as God always has been. Even though we may not know all of about God the truth of Him remains. We can only go by how He has shown Himself to mankind. If God had never shown grace to man, this does not mean God has no grace. One has to believe there are may things about God we do not know, for God has not shown them to us. We know all that he feels we need to know at this time.

This can best be seen in the "gender" of God. I have been asked is not God female also? I have to say God is much more then male or female, but for whatever reason He has only revealed Himself as male. That is all I know.

So Grace is part of God even if we did not know of it.

 

Gottcha!!!!!!!!! :thumbs:

 

The sun. We have light, heat, and the sun itself. Although an analogy of anything created fails when it comes to God, who is not created, but actually the Creator.

 

In classical theism, we do not remove from God anything. We start with a blank slate and ask what is God? Hodge called it "Being of God"

Systematic Theology - Volume I
Author: Hodge, Charles

Now Hodge puts more points into this, which is fine. He follows the with this lineup.

1. Definitions of God.
2. Divine Attributes.
3. Classification of the Divine Attributes.
4. Spirituality of God.
5. Infinity.
6. Eternity.
7. Immutability.
8. Knowledge.
9. The Will of God
10. The Power of God.
11. Holiness of God.
12. Justice.
13. The Goodness of God.
14. The Truth of God.
15. Sovereignty

I'm not sure I would add "goodness" to this list. God is good, but God does not have to be good in order to be God. But...that is my view.

 

I have shared this before. No model works fully as has been said above, but I feel Dr Morris had about the best model. Time, Space and matter. I'm to lazy to type the whole thing. You should be able to find it on ICR web site. Do a search for "triune-universe" and you should find it. If you have "The Long War Against God" a small bit of it is in that book.

 

BEGIN by dropping the Calvinist "airs." And you're saying "fellowship with Himself?" Isn't that narcisism at its extreme?! Perhaps you have similar feelings?

I think you misunderstand the entire thrust of my comments here.

So God is NOT "the rewarder of them who diligently seek Him?" Well, thanks for taking Christianity "off the table." How then should we worship Him?

Of course it can! Do you allow your husband/wife to have any sovereignty? Or do you control EVERYTHING in your home?

You appear to confuse "sovereignty" with "control." God has control over everything though He gives sovereignty to all mankind. How does He have control? The laws of God always bring things back to His foreknown and intended ends.

[demeaning comments deleted]

 

Then why do you disagree that He can allow us to have sovereignty?

Have you considered that DISPENSATIONALLY God actually administers His kingdom through MEN? Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, ... the names are endless! But MEN whom 1) God spoke to and 2) who made choices before God used them! You know what? Calvinism ignores this totally! Calvinism acts as if God is the "Great Puppetmaster!" Calvinism (and no doubt the author in question, OP) ignores all decisions for God as "automatic" -- God's "doing," not man's.

There is almost nothing as antithetical to scripture as leaving men's choices out of the "equation!!"

skypair

 

Soul, spirit, body -- Father, Spirit, Son. There could not be a simpler nor more complete explanation of how we are created in God's image! And I add --- you MUST be saved soul, then spirit, then body.

skypair